Hmmm. I hadn't given that much thought, but do agree it is an issue. After this next rules change is completely announced, I'll give it some looking into. Simplifying things is always good for the game in my opinion, making it a worthy endeavor.

Hmmm, well you've got me there. A simple fix though. As long as the power action grants flurry 2 close combat actions (instead of just attacks) it can still use blades/claws/fangs. The original post is changed to reflect this.

Fair point, however that rule is less newly announced, this thread is over 2 years old. Not the change I would have made to stealth, but i does seem to make a lot more sense now.

That's possibly fair. I would like to see something done about how unfun it is to fight figures with HSS and big damage though. Object or no, it seems unfair.
I can see that maybe little guys need to pull their weight, but big guys shouldn't fall on their face. The game's already pretty predisposed to favor lots of little guys with big damage potential. I know if I have 4 damage and blades/claws/fangs, I'm simply just never rolling it.

Possibly, although it certainly is very underpowered right now. I can count less than 5 times that I used regular smoke cloud and it was actually more useful than moving or attacking with the piece would be.

Due to the thematic nature of power cosmic and Quintessence, they just can't be given out to a large number of figures. Not to mention that my proposed solution of tiered damage reducers is still drastically inferior to those team abilities anyway. Outwit is simply too good in regards to damage reducers. Damage reducers are what make expensive pieces viable in a system with 11 maximum hit points. When a 40 point piece can take away half the effective life total of a 200+ point piece for free, without rolling, 100% of the time, that is a balance issue.

Going to have to adamantly disagree here. Due to the nature of probability when rolling 2 dice, as well as the nature of the games -2 damage reduction with 11 maximum hit points, perplex is too strong. Each point of perplex stacked on a stat makes it exponentially more powerful than the last point. I'm OK with perplex lasting an entire round instead of a turn I guess, but currently perplex just is too good.

This makes it so that you could use Exploit Weakness twice with Flurry. With the added benefit of B/C/F, for those who have the combo.

Yup, maybe a little extreme ?
Two Exploit Weakness in the same action seems too much.

DANG IT, I can't win.

OK OK I got it. Blades/claws/fangs is usable any time a close combat attack is made. This would allow pieces to use hypersonic speed and blades/claws/fangs together, but that combo is so rare it shouldn't upset game balance in the slightest.

It is rare. I did a quick count in the units section only 11 pieces that have HSS or are a Transporter and have BCF. Not counting special powers that grand BCF or HSS so I might be missing a few.

i can understand about not wanting big guys to fall on their face. in a normal game when you pay a lot of points to tentpole if 1 or 2 things go wrong it could be curtains. but here again instead of a rules change i'd just prefer a trait or sp where if fig x at 200 pts uses blades he does minimum 3 damage.

yeah smoke cloud is underpowered, but i think giving it on a case by case basis as a free action (sinestro bats, robin) makes it even out. traits and sps have done so much for this game.

but i think some of the other problems you'd like changed are somewhat balanced. big guys with hss + big damage are countered by deep teams with outwit and perplex. and vice versa.

with reducers i think again there should be some situational sps and traits for some figs that say 'hey if this fig's imp is countered they can use inv'. i think outwit is fine as is bc if you think hss + big damage figs are bad now with guaranteed reducers they'd be 100x worse.

Not be that guy, but what is this doing in the rules forum? Shouldn't this be in "Dreams and Desires" or "Dear Wiz/NECA?" or "General".?

It certainly has no place in the rules forum. I'll just have to repost an updated version later. How disappointing and inappropriate for it to end up here after so many years.

Agreed on both counts.

Thank you very much for moving it Quebbster.

The new PAC changes are here!!!

The new rules in bite-size chunks, as well as my reaction to them.

Close Combat Expert had the restrictions of using objects with it removed. It’s still a power action and it still gives you +2 to your damage, but now if you’re holding an object, you can still choose to use Close Combat Expert.

Neat little change. It made one of the worst and most redundant power combinations in the game a little better, which is nice. I'm going ot have to dust off my Ulik and continue to destroy people with Hypertime Bane. Take that DC 75th Bane, now Hypertime Bane can hit for 6 damage too!

Phasing/Teleport – this has become a move action once again and it now ignores characters.

I can't imagine this change will have much effect if any, on anything ever. A slight different that you should keep track of, but it isn't a game changer by any sense.

Leap/Climb – this has become a move action, but does not get the “ignore characters” update of Phasing/Teleport.

Same as Phasing/Teleport. It's perhaps a bit more clear to teach new players, but unchanged overall. Does give a slight boost to Avangers/Brotherhood team abilities, which is always nice because those team abilities are pretty worthless.

Battle Fury – continues to provide the same restrictions that you currently have – the character cannot be carried and can’t be targeted by someone using Mind Control. But now, the character cannot be targeted by Incapacitate either and ignores other character's shape-change.

Now here we get into a cool change. Battle fury goes from a "bad" power to one with a series of trade-offs. Bake the "indomitable" feat card in there a bit and now shape-change has a counter that isn't outwit (or Bullseye). I like the change overall. It feels themey and makes sense. Also it isn't like the battlefury crowd is suddenly going to become overpowered, they could use the boost.

Energy Explosion – the attack itself is now a “no damage” attack, though it still deals damage based on the number of times each target (and adjacent character) is hit. As a “no damage” attack, a critical miss while using this power will no longer cause the attacker to take damage. It would normally also mean that a critical hit would not increase the damage dealt, but the power continues to point out that you do.

There's no gamplay change here. The only difference is that now using energy explosion makes the attacker exempt from critical misses, which personally I find extremely stupid. You're attacking a target with things that explode. Why exactly is that unable to backfire?

Incapacitate – the same change as Energy Explosion, it is now a “no damage” attack. Unlike Energy Explosion, there is no caveat for critical hits.

Again, this is a pointless change that does virtually nothing. you can't crit for 1 damage with incapacitate anymore, nor can it hurt you when you critically miss with it. But more to the point, who cares? This is just so unlikely to ever matter I again wonder why it was given any attention. To me, it is a pointless rules complication. You go from "if you roll a double 1's when attacking you take damage" to "f you roll a double 1's when attacking you take damage with the exception of A, B, C, and Q." Negative change that does nothing to help game balance or ease of game-play.

Quake – all characters using this power use it with a locked damage value of 2 (not just characters with a damage value of more than 2).

Only about 10% of characters with quake have 1 damage. I see this again as a bit of a pointless change. It might effect some figures slightly (Cave Carson fans rejoice) but again just isn't something I would have put in the limelight.

Shape Change – This power is completely unchanged. The rules alternation is clarification on how it functions only.

What was the point in even talking about this? How this made it in "medium changes" instead of minor tweaks is beyond me. The power literally didn't change in any way. It's just "more clear" now.


Leadership – A successful roll for this power now allows the character with Leadership to remove an action token from an adjacent character (that is a lower point cost). Leadership is cumulative now – if you have 3 Leaders, each one can roll for Leadership and each one can remove a token and add an action to your action pool for the turn. Leadership is now only successful on a 5-6 instead of a 4-6.

This is big, and I'll reserve critical comment until I see it in action. Leadership has always been a bad power. It has gotten worse as the game has evolved due to the general rising point cost of the average figure. This change is multifaceted. It makes leadership better on swarms now, because leadership extra actions stack. And finally it makes leadership useful on expensive characters. No longer will you have to look at the leadership on KC Superman, Green Scar, or Arkham Asylum Wonder Woman and cringe at the wasted points. In that sense, the change to leadership is great and well thought out. It gives a boost to low point leadership pieces and high point ones simultaneously without really overlapping. What concerns me is that Edward Nigma, Chief, Thing, and warbound are all considered overpowered for a very good reason. In a 2 token system, potential infinite actions is VERY powerful. Overall I like the change because leadership has always been in need of a boost, plus the stipulation that the removed action token must be taken away from a lower cost piece prevents it from becoming too good. Still, I am wary. There are a LOT of pieces that suddenly deserve a second look.

Pulse Wave – Pulse Wave, though it remains a ranged combat attack, can be activated while adjacent to an opposing character.

This worries me even more than the leadership change. Pulse wave simply did not need a boost, being one of the most powerful abilities in the game. Short range pulse wavers went from sub par to amazing though, so that is a nice benefit. It will remain to be seen, but I think this will overpower pulse wave. If nothing else, Noh-Varr went from "extremely good" to "borderline broken" with this change.

Stealth – When it is not your turn, hindered lines of fire drawn to this character are blocked. This means that opponents can cause stealthed characters to re-roll with Probability Control on the stealthed character's turn.

Well, I have always been an advocate to nerfing stealth. My problem with stealth has always been that it was confusing to new players (which is fixed, yay) and that it not only made you immune to ranged attacks, but also outwit, perplex, and probability control. This change affects the probability control part, which is a decent enough nerf I suppose. Not the best change, but I am happy that finally got rid of the "what do you mean I can't see myself" none-sense once and for all.

Telekinesis – The TKer needs to be able to draw line of fire to the target. The TKer needs to be able to draw a line of fire to the destination. And there needs to be a clear line of fire between the target and the destination. As with the current rules, all three of these points need to be within 8 squares of each other. With these rules, you need line of fire to the object (A) and the square occupied by the character you want to hit. That stealthed character is fair game against a TK/object attack. To be clear – you cannot target the character to TK him out of hindering terrain, but if you have an object nearby (and there’s a clear line of fire between the object and the square the stealthed character occupies), then you are free to make that attack.

Did I say they got rid of the nonsense? Well shoot. Why can a telekinesis attack target somebody in stealth? No no no don't tell me the technical reason. I fully understand how the rules work as written with the telekinesis piece targeting a square and not a character. I'm talking about from a gameplay and logical standpoint.

Why can you throw a bus as somebody but not shoot them with lasers? If you don''t know they are there, how does that make any sense at all? I don't mind that stealth got a counter, not in the least. I just wish it made a lick of sense. I am EXTREMELY disappointed by the nonsensical nature of this change. It is just plain stupid, and just as bad as stealthed characters not being able to target themselves.

Smoke cloud, damage reducers and their interaction with outwit, regeneration, and forceblast were sadly not addressed in any way. They will continue to be lackluster powers, sadness.

Leadership and stealth were buffed and nerfed accordingly. Maybe not the way I would have done it, but steps in the right direction! Pretty happy about these.

blades/claws/fangs continues to be a painful gamble on high price figures (while cheap characters like Daken and Psylocke get super blades/claws/fangs) and receives no change.

Perplex and outwit continue to be overpowered, as do hypersonic speed and flurry combined with charge.

Barrier also still remains useless on expensive pieces.

Overall, some decent changes, some stupid changes to stealth, some potentially overpowering changes to leadership and pulse wave. It will be an interesting new rulebook. I'll continue to update this thread when I have time (not now, finals are coming up and I am swamped) and hope for the best so the game I enjoy keeps on getting better as time goes on.