A bit of backstory (skip if u don't care): a player from the venue I judge at recently played in a ROC tournament. When he returned he told me about a situation where it was ruled that Outwit could be used to counter a power a character could use through a relic because "use and possess are pretty much the same now". Now, I'm not accusing anyone (I know I've had my share of screw ups). I'm just checking as a judge about something my player asked me. He said they said the rule had recently been changed.


Question: Can Outwit be used to counter an ability or power a character can use, but doesn't possess? It seems pretty obvious to me:

OUTWIT Give this character a free action to counter a power or a combat ability possessed by a single target opposing character until the beginning of your next turn. Any game effects with a duration specified by the countered power or combat ability are removed. A character using this power must be within range (minimum range 6) and line of fire to the target

Thanks

Nothing has changed. He's wrong.

From the long list of similar threads that pop up after many ROC events, it sounds like a lot of bad calls are being made at them.

From the 2014 Core Rules:

Seems fairly straight forward. However, I would like to know if someone can elaborate or clarify the final part of that quote for me... "though often the power or ability granting use of that power can be countered instead."

As I understand it, its saying that a Special Power might grant the use of a power or ability. Since the character is 'using' that power or ability, it can't be countered. However, the Special Power might be countered.

Can some give me a specific example of what might counter a Special Power?

For instance, NML020 Batgirl's Special Power "The Bat Is A Symbol" granting Batgirl the use of Force Blast or Incapacitate. What might counter her Special Ability?

What the rule is saying is that you couldn't use Outwit to counter Force Blast or Incapacitate, because Batgirl can use them rather than possess them. You can use Outwit to counter the power "The Bat Is A Symbol," though.

I have nothing as far as special powers but look at it this way.

Indomitable: This character can use Willpower.

Now you can't outwit the willpower itself since it is only used but the combat ability Indomitable is possessed which you can outwit therefore getting rid of their use of willpower. Make sense?

Got it. Because 'The Bat Is A Symbol' is represented on the character's dial, it is a possessed power as per the rules...

Thus Outwit can counter 'The Bat Is A Symbol'.

So effectively though, we have the same result as if the countering character could directly counter the use of incapacitate or Force Blast.

Are there any subtle differences I'm missing? As it stands, the person the OP mentions doesn't seem to be entirely incorrect in his summation of the situation, even though he was technically incorrect. It seems like a lot of 'used' powers can be countered simply by countering the power that grants their use.

In that sense, the rules seem a little silly. Its like telling your kid he can't walk to the store, but he can stride there. Huh?

I'm guessing that one of the few real differences becomes apparent in a case like the OP mentioned, where the use of a power is granted by a relic. It can't be counted at all since there's no 'special power' to counter that is granting the use of other powers.

Hey - I don't think that is warranted - I think it's fairer to say
As ROC brings together players from different venues in a competitive environment there are going to be more differences over rule interpretation that at a a venue that both players attend regularly.

It's worth remembering that there is no such thing as a ROC judge - we are the same people that judge at venues everyday - don't blame ROC for our bad calls.

To bring it back to the question ROC just uses Judges it doesn't possess them.

Phyl.

The rules language around use or possession of abilities and powers is just terrible in some respects. Both in the confusing use of language/words, and the lack of consistency in their application to the game mechanics. Let me give you an example of what I mean.

As we know, 'possessed' powers and abilities can be countered.

We also know that 'Special Powers' can be countered if possessed, just like other powers. The fact that the word 'Special' appears in front of the word 'Powers' means nothing in respect to whether it can be countered. It appears on the dial and is possessed, thus it can be countered.

From page 18 of the official 2014 core rules:

So from what is written above, you would surmise that an 'ability' printed on the base IS 'possessed'.

But what about 'Trait Abilities'? They appear on the base, as per the description of 'possessed'. Also, the rules specifically acknowledge that Traits are 'possessed'.

From page 20 of the Core Rules:

Yet, despite being possessed, the rules state that 'Trait Abilities' cannot be countered.

So possessed Trait Abilities cannot be countered, but possessed abilities granted by the possessed Trait ability can be countered....