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Is the extra damage from a critical hit part of normal damage?
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COLOSSAL RETALIATION: REARRANGE REALITY: Give Dormammu a free action if no other Colossal Retaliation power has been activated this turn and choose an opposing character that attacked Dormammu or damaged a friendly character since your last turn. Place Dormammu such that he can make a close attack targeting the chosen character and also target all other characters within 2 squares. This attack ignores Shape Change, Super Senses, and the Mystics Team ability. Each hit character is dealt 2 penetrating damage instead of normal damage. After actions resolve, you may place any number of single-base hit characters in each other's squares.
Even though my question is broadly applicable to everyone who replaces normal damage Im asking specifically in regards to Dormammu. When he does his colossal retalation and rolls a critical hit, does he do 3 damage or 2?
Forgive me for being pedantic but I'm not convinced by what you said. I mean, you've won 2 more WKO tournaments then I have so you definitely have more experience than me but I noticed a couple flaws in your reasoning that I would like to point out. One is that normal damage can be either penetrating or non penetrating so saying "penetrating instead of normal damage" has to mean more than just that the damage is now penetrating. Furthermore, I believe that the standard terminology used to make non-penetrating damage penetrate is already "damage dealt is penetrating" so why would they use new words to describe an established effect? My second point against your assessment is that you seem to be implying that by increasing the damage dealt a critical hit is outside of normal damage but the clarification of normal damage is that it is the damage dealt from an attack using the attacker's calculated damage value. So if I'm already replacing the damage dealt with something else, why wouldn't that include the 1 extra damage being dealt by a critical hit? I guess that what I'm trying to say here is, is that your final answer?
ps. I hope I'm not coming off as rude here, I really appreciate you coming in and helping me figure this out.
My second point against your assessment is that you seem to be implying that by increasing the damage dealt a critical hit is outside of normal damage but the clarification of normal damage is that it is the damage dealt from an attack using the attacker's calculated damage value. So if I'm already replacing the damage dealt with something else, why wouldn't that include the 1 extra damage being dealt by a critical hit? I guess that what I'm trying to say here is, is that your final answer?
ps. I hope I'm not coming off as rude here, I really appreciate you coming in and helping me figure this out.
Questions are always good! It helps clarify things so no worries.
Addressing the second point first. If it is ruled that this penetrating vs normal damage is a replacement effect (not entirely sure that it is a replacement effect but has the same idea anyway) the rule is replace, then modify. Critical hit damage is the modifier that is always applied after the replacement effect has taken place. So replace my 4 damage with 2 penetrating damage takes place, then you can modify it further with Crit Hit damage.
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One is that normal damage can be either penetrating or non penetrating so saying "penetrating instead of normal damage" has to mean more than just that the damage is now penetrating. Furthermore, I believe that the standard terminology used to make non-penetrating damage penetrate is already "damage dealt is penetrating" so why would they use new words to describe an established effect?
You are correct looking at the clarification that normal damage can be penetrating or non-penetrating. Looking at the online clarifications section:
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[C]Damage dealt from an attack using the attacker's calculated damage value (including locked values) is called normal damage. The damage type may vary (standard or penetrating)and the damage may be divided up (if targeting using ;Bolt; 's) but the attack is still considered to be dealing normal damage. When an attack is no longer dealing normal damage, it will use the phrase "instead of normal damage" and you will deal the specified damage amount, or apply the specified effect, instead of dealing the attacker's damage value to the target(s).
Everything here is referenced to damage value. So normal damage is that which is calculated on damage value. So if I attack with a damage value of 4 but it says everyone takes 2 penetrating instead of normal, it means the 2 instead of the 4 (including any modifiers like perplex or enhancement done to the 4). This doesn't mean damage dealt - damage dealt is not the same as value which is why the crit hit damage will work.
[C]Damage dealt from an attack using the attacker's calculated damage value (including locked values) is called normal damage. The damage type may vary (standard or penetrating)and the damage may be divided up (if targeting using ;Bolt; 's) but the attack is still considered to be dealing normal damage. When an attack is no longer dealing normal damage, it will use the phrase "instead of normal damage" and you will deal the specified damage amount, or apply the specified effect, instead of dealing the attacker's damage value to the target(s).
[C]If you used ;Bolt; 's to target multiple characters, or an effect instructs you to “divide the damage”, you divide and assign the attacker’s damage value between all hit targets. In all other cases, the character’s full damage value is dealt to each hit target. When dividing the damage, you may assign 0 damage to a hit target, but all damage must be assigned.
Note that Colossal Retaliation does not fix damage dealt at 2 damage. So it can still be modified by thngs like critical hits or effects that ignores damage dealt.
"CRITICAL HITS
[C]A critical hit increases the damage dealt to any character hit by an attack that deals damage, even if the character was not a target of the attack or was assigned 0 damage."
What is the damage dealt by Dormammu's Retaliation? 2 Penetrating Damage. So, a Critical Hit increases that to 3.
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