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The biggest problem is, when most special powers grant a Power it is its own statement. And in a separate statement says "When Power is used do X" rather then "When you use this Power do X". So you get the trigger effect each time, no matter where the source.
I don't see an issue, it obvious that you can add these extra effects to whomever you want. If you are not taking the time to look through the dial to see of there us a duplicate power then that is on you and you are wasting the points.
There is obviously plenty of reasons why this was put in as a rule, I showed at least one.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
And again, as I've repeated over and over, change the rule to prevent the triggers you just mentioned and the problem is solved. Target it at what you want to prevent rather than this blanket rule. And of course you build based on the current rules, that's a given. That has no bearing on whether its a good rule or not.
And again, as I've repeated over and over, change the rule to prevent the triggers you just mentioned and the problem is solved. Target it at what you want to prevent rather than this blanket rule. And of course you build based on the current rules, that's a given. That has no bearing on whether its a good rule or not.
Wh make all that needless errata? Your asking for a way that would basically get around abilities that have negative effects by design. You are asking for away to get around a rule that helps curve objects usage.
The rule is clear. If you edit it it, more players will be confused on sheathed they can use something or not, rather then the simple 'I already have that effect I can not use the new one's.'
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
It would be one rule, likely more succinct and intuitive than the current one. There would really be no errata necessary since at the core the thing being prevented remains unchanged. The argument then becomes whether its more confusing to say batman cannot use smoke bombs on the utility belt because he can already smoke cloud or to say when there are two options you can choose either. I think the latter is far less confusing and far more intuitive. Plus it leads to less absurdity such as the batman example.
1) the change is not needed.
2) a poorly worded change will do more harm than good
3-ish) there is potential for abuse
I will go in order:
1) I still don't think this change is needed, as I don't see how the change would make the game "better". More options (being the only reason offered so far) does not guarantee "better".
2) I will start picking apart your wording when time permits. Work is going to be in the way for the next few days, so I won't have time for Special Power diving in the Units section.
But, I'll start with this: find every character with Special Powers and make sure every one that needs an eratta gets one, because some of them will need it. Time permitting, I will help where I can.
3) When you finish 2, I'll start on 3.
Again, I'm not opposed to changing this, but the ammount of effort it will take to pull off without complicating things will be massive. But if you really, really want it, start working on it.
Perhaps I am missing something, please show me one character that you think would need errata.
I think resources have limited the viability of swarm armies, because they are most efficient when used on one very strong piece. I could be wrong with the emergence of Cruiser/Gordon teams.
Batarangs and Smoke Grenades are great for taking on swarms.
Gauntlet allowing you to use Pulse Wave or Quake.
If anything Resources help One-Man Armies go up against swarms.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
Metron was from Arkham Asylum which is a set that's closing in on 5-years-old. It was one of the first sets where Heroclix hit the reset button and introduced carded figures and special abilities. At that time I'm sure Metron seemed ridiculously powerful and they wan't to make sure he and others didn't get out of hand. Flash forward to now and Metron is good but far from what he was given all the new figures that we've sense seen. Basically what applied then doesn't really apply now but the rule still lingers. It's like when WotC and most players used to think Magic's Serra Angel was so overpowered (and it was when the game first came out) but now it can't even find room in any modern competitive deck.
Every few years all game systems that regularly introduce new things need to reevaluate the rules because more often than not things need to change one way or another.
Arkham Asylum was the 6th carded set to come out, so I wouldn't chalk it up to them being new at the idea of special powers. Heroclix never hit the reset button, they just started adding things to the game. Metron is still probably the best use of 195 pts in today's game and would still be in modern competitive format if he wasn't golden age.
You have to remember, there was a year without Heroclix. 5 years ago is really 4 years ago from a design stand point, and really, AA came out in late 2008 IIRC. So that is more like 3.5 years ago, if that.
Perhaps I am missing something, please show me one character that you think would need errata.
If you want me to do all the work for you, it will take time. Busy at work. Give me a few weeks to review every Special Power and I'll get back to you.
Until then, can you start for me? You can start from Avengers and work up, I'll start with AMS and work back. Sound good?
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
With the amount of times you are Ninja'd I swear you must have the Past Keyword
If a character can use a power or ability from two separate sources the controlling player must choose one source each time the power or ability is used.
VIBRO SHOCK GAUNTLETS: Shocker can use Penetrating/Psychic Blast. When he does and targets only one character, a hit character is also given an action token.
Scorpio Key
Immobile, Can't Be Destroyed Once per game per character, give a character occupying Scorpio Key's square a power action and roll a d6 that can't be rerolled. On a roll of 5 or 6, place this object on that character's card. Modify that character's range value by +2 and that character can use Penetrating/Psychic Blast. When that character is defeated, place this object in the square that character last occupied. At the end of the game, if an opponent controls this or you control no characters, your opponent scores this object.
Without a clear definition of "source", if Shocker uses the Scorpio Key for P/PB for the +2 range, does he get the effect of placing an action token?
Last edited by dairoka; 02/08/2013 at 14:43..
Reason: formatting
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
With the amount of times you are Ninja'd I swear you must have the Past Keyword
If a character can use a power or ability from two separate sources the controlling player must choose one source each time the power or ability is used.
VIBRO SHOCK GAUNTLETS: Shocker can use Penetrating/Psychic Blast. When he does and targets only one character, a hit character is also given an action token.
Scorpio Key
Immobile, Can't Be Destroyed Once per game per character, give a character occupying Scorpio Key's square a power action and roll a d6 that can't be rerolled. On a roll of 5 or 6, place this object on that character's card. Modify that character's range value by +2 and that character can use Penetrating/Psychic Blast. When that character is defeated, place this object in the square that character last occupied. At the end of the game, if an opponent controls this or you control no characters, your opponent scores this object.
Without a clear definition of "source", if Shocker uses the Scorpio Key for P/PB for the +2 range, does he get the effect of placing an action token?
I would be completely on board with this. I agree that the word "source" is the key. That would clean-up Metron and the like.
Quote : Originally Posted by BlackIrishGuilt
I'd like to thank Origamiman for teaching me the ways of scarcastic abuse.
Quote : Originally Posted by JRTasoli
Oh my.......Holy..........mother.....I can't. I can't. This is just glorious. This is the Mona Lisa of sarcastic replies. Origamiman, you make it look like art.
Quote : Originally Posted by Danzig01
origamiman: From top to bottom, the best snarkster in the business
Arkham Asylum was the 6th carded set to come out, so I wouldn't chalk it up to them being new at the idea of special powers. Heroclix never hit the reset button, they just started adding things to the game. Metron is still probably the best use of 195 pts in today's game and would still be in modern competitive format if he wasn't golden age.
You have to remember, there was a year without Heroclix. 5 years ago is really 4 years ago from a design stand point, and really, AA came out in late 2008 IIRC. So that is more like 3.5 years ago, if that.
By reset button I meant the change from non-carded to carded figures as all the carded figures are significantly stronger all around and not just because they have special powers. Pretty much all card figures basic stats are well above the non-carded ones.
Also, AA being the 6th set doesn't mean much if the rate of release was the same as 2012. How many sets did we get in 2012 including all the random sets like Halo, Assassin's Creed, Star Trek and all those dirty Hobbitses? 2012 probably averaged a new set of something coming out at least once a month.
If a character can use a power or ability from two separate sources the controlling player must choose one source each time the power or ability is used.
........
Without a clear definition of "source", if Shocker uses the Scorpio Key for P/PB for the +2 range, does he get the effect of placing an action token?
That's clean and golden. The answer is no. It's either the token or the range mod - not both. In no way does this choice devalue the points that are factored into either option; nor is anything broken by allowing the option.
I won't look at your dial-on-card, I don't look at my own, and you don't need to see my DOC, ever. Otherwise, we're not playing HeroClix.
If a character can use a power or ability from two separate sources the controlling player must choose one source each time the power or ability is used.
VIBRO SHOCK GAUNTLETS: Shocker can use Penetrating/Psychic Blast. When he does and targets only one character, a hit character is also given an action token.
Scorpio Key
Immobile, Can't Be Destroyed Once per game per character, give a character occupying Scorpio Key's square a power action and roll a d6 that can't be rerolled. On a roll of 5 or 6, place this object on that character's card. Modify that character's range value by +2 and that character can use Penetrating/Psychic Blast. When that character is defeated, place this object in the square that character last occupied. At the end of the game, if an opponent controls this or you control no characters, your opponent scores this object.
Without a clear definition of "source", if Shocker uses the Scorpio Key for P/PB for the +2 range, does he get the effect of placing an action token?
So your issue is with source being undefined, because there is no need for errata here. I will have to think of a solid definition but it is clear here the intent is he would choose either +2 Range or Action token. If you use one part of an ability, you use all of it.
If you want me to do all the work for you, it will take time. Busy at work. Give me a few weeks to review every Special Power and I'll get back to you.
Until then, can you start for me? You can start from Avengers and work up, I'll start with AMS and work back. Sound good?
I actually just want one example so I can understand what you mean. If Shocker is what you mean, then the failure is in defining source.