Starro, at its cheapest, went for about $40. That's still almost twice the price of the two boosters you'd have needed to pay for the sealed event. Screw limited availability in its stupid face.

Pointed out to everyone who insists there are no benefits to dyslexia:

I feel a little bad about laughing at this, but rep delivered.

To Comical and Tarnish:

If you want a brick figure, you know what your getting yourself into. Buy a brick, send them in and hope for the best. Why am I so ticked about the Starro situation? I bought 2 boosters a week, every week at 2 venues to not only help Wizkids but thinking that this was a once in a lifetime chance at a limited prize. Everyone at your venue has a more than fair shot at getting a brick figure that wasn't true with the Starro figure. They cheapened not only Starro but the event itself by releasing the same figure mass market. Are you honestly saying that if they did this type of event again you would support it? Not only would I not because of what they did, I would gladly send them a big middle finger should they even announce they were thinking of doing it again. Then I would sit and wait 6 months for the mass market release. At least then I wouldn't be getting screwed.

Screw limited availability in its face.

Every week except the last one involved participation prizes. Every booster brought with it - hey, hey - the contents of the boosters. Starro - at its cheapest - was going for around the price of 3-4 boosters.

Complaining that Starro became available to everyone instead of only a few people isn't so much of a complaint as it is evidence that someone is a wanker. "I want something that next to no one else can have." Yeah, jerk move, but not on Wizkids part. Particularly since everyone else was doing what you did - playing in sealed events in the hope of snagging Starro. Except they don't have anything to show for it and, if they want Starro, they have to drop money down in addition to whatever they spent on the boosters.

#3 - Regarding chases.

This is not a dig at the OP specifically, I have seen the comment of 'Chases are ruining Heroclix!' A LOT. I want to shed some light on how it's so much worse, comparing it to another game that actually does have the worst case scenario.
I am using this disclaimer because I think I'm going to come off a bit hasty and bit beligerant. But it's true.




If you have a problem with the chase figures in Heroclix, you obviously haven't played any other CMGs/CCGs. Where if you did, Heroclix looks REALLY lenient when it comes to chases.

Here's the thing, if you played Magic: The Gathering or Yugioh. you know where I'm coming from, if not, I'll drop some knowledge on you.

I'll use Yugioh as the example here because they SCREW players and collectors alike MUCH harder than WOTC EVER could

Secret Rares are the equivalent to our Chase Rares in Yugioh. We get, what, 2-4 chases per set. They have 10.

TEN!

Heck, one of their sets had FIFTEEN (Gladiator Assault)! And one of them was a short print (Necroface).

A Chase to the CHASES. That's just flat out mean.

It gets worse. A lot of the best cards within ANY Yugioh set is going to be a secret rare. And when I say 'the best', I mean if you aren't using it, you better not be showing up to a tournament. So if you intend on using a specific deck, you're either going all the way with it or not at all.
So how much does ONE of these 'chases' usually cost?

Around $70-$300 (yes, $300) EACH. In a 40 card deck, high end rarity cards add up QUICK. Dropping 500 dollars on a deck in Yugioh that will only be good for 6 months isn't uncommon.

That's just the chases, imagine the other rarities.
Part of the problem for US players is that we get to see what gets released to Japan first. Which is all right, considering that we will also know the rarities of all the cards in the set before it comes out.
Now when it gets released to the states, all the cards that we would deem 'usable in a competitive environment' get rarity bumped. So if the card is, let's say, a rare in Japan; to make the set sell better, Konami bumps the rarity to Super Rare (we don't have an equivalent, but it would be an in between of our Rare and Super Rare) or Ultra Rare (our version of super Rare). Making it hard as hell to obtain and stupid expensive if you don't like gambling with boosters.

Imagine if you saw what was coming out in Hammer of Thor and also had access to all the dials.
You'd see the Captain America that we all know and recognize as a VERY powerful rare figure.
Now imagine Wizkids coming down 2 weeks before their release and saying that Captain America is now a Super Rare or a chase.
Quite a boner, correct?

(Useless fact: Dark Armed Dragon was a rare when it was released in Phantom Darkness. Only to be turned around to chase-status in the US and going for over $300-$350 a pop. On top of that, that card ALONE marked a new era of power creep, and I won't even get into that issue!).

Let's look at the most recent chases. The Blackest Night figures.

If you ask ANYONE that's involved within competitive play, you'll see that the Black Lantern Coprs are HARDLY considered. Kal-L is the only one that's REMOTELY considered for competitive use. Look at Hammer of Thor. Are Throg or Thorbuster 'must play or risk losing the game' figures? No. Are they decent figures for their points? Yes!
Lamppost Batman and Sinestro Corps Batman: Broken? No.
Good for the points? Yes.
you can go in the UNITS section and pull up chases, I'll tell you right now, you're only going to see 3-4
(E2 Superman, Alfred Pennyworth, Lois Lane, and KC superman although he's subjective) REALLY good 'must have' chase figures. That's pretty good considering that the REALLY good ones were when they actually established chases as a rarity. Wizkids have turned chases from being the broken 'must have' figures into decent figures that are good in their own respect, but not gamebreaking. Which, if you think about it, is actually a REALLY thin line to walk on and they've been doing pretty good at it.

And the semantics ion the boards regarding the probability of chases per case is ALARMING. If you REALLY want a chase figure THAT BAD; buy it or trade for it. If you're buying bricks and cases SOLELY for a chase figure, you're doing it for the wrong reason.
Chases are the proverbial 'toy in the cereal box': Yes, Lucky Charms are nice and sugary, but the toy is just an unexpected 'Let's high five in light of this overabundance of cool-ness!'

People need to quit doing the probability for chases and give it a rest, IMO.
If you aren't buying or trading for a chase outright, you are gambling. And in gambling, the best you can do is try to beat the odds. Which is what buying bricks and cases are.

So whenever anyone complains about 'chases ruining Heroclix'. I am positive that 95% of the people saying this haven't played any other game besides Heroclix, which is the problem, you only know what's in the realm of your scope. And if your scope is just Heroclix, you're going to see chases as a screw-you to collectors and possibly to the players.
And I'm positive that the other 5% never played other games competitively or very well to realize how much you need to invest in the good stuff.



tl;dr: Be grateful; the chases aren't NEARLY as bad as you think. It's much worse with other games.

After playing in the four lead-up events (and winning 3 of them), my venue decided a few days before the final to move it to a date I couldn't attend (I had blocked out all 5 weeks of the Starro event so that I could support the whole thing). Buying one was my only option after that, so I bought one for around $40 as soon as it became available. Having said that, I agree with you that the retail Starro should have been different in some way. I honestly don't much care about the monetary value...but keeping the prizes "special", especially after battling it out through a 5-week event, would be nice.

FWIW, my Starro sits proudly displayed on my desk at work. I don't display trophies, so that didn't influence my decision to display him...he's just a fricking cool statue!


I agree, and I know I would.


Actually, that's all they are now.

Put them one per case, make them 4-6, and they're much more rare than a SR, but provide an incentive to buy by the case. You'd still have to chase them to get them all (that's still a minimum of 4-6 cases, assuming perfect distribution or trading), or to get specific ones, but at least at one/case, people would actually have an incentive to buy by the case. I accept that it may not motivate you, but I certainly would up my purchase from a brick to a case if this was the scheme, especially if there were 6 of them...the monetary difference in a 6-chase-one-per-case scheme should be minimal when you factor in the value of the chase figure.


I totally disagree (at least about brick figures having to have some value). The brick figure is a bulk purchase incentive. If you make the purchase, you should get the incentive. That didn't happen with World's Finest. I sent off my UPCs and form ON THE DAY OF PURCHASE and was one of the folks left out in the cold. At least someone had to "work" to win that prize...all the folks who got their "valuable" WF brick figure had to do was the same thing as me (buy a brick and submit the paperwork) and get lucky enouigh to have their mail delivered first.

The way they do the brick figures now is fine - the numbers add very little IMO, so making unnumbered ones available if the numbered ones sell out, and limiting purchases so speculators can't screw over collectors, works nicely.


Agreed. I think the thing that really killed Horrorclix was lack of licensing. Making more movie/tv monsters and monster fighters, particularly if they were timely (the Winchesters and some supernatural foes when the series first came out, Buffy and her friends and enemies when the Season 8 comic series started, a new werewolf and some hunters to coincide with the recent movie, maybe even V clix and (shudder) Twilight clix about now, with some of them (Buffy and co) having crossover mechanics, would have been great for the game. The economics might not have supported this direction, but I think it would have done wonders for the game's popularity.




Yeah, totally agree. At my venue it was 1 per 2 cases, and that matches the bulk of the math reported elsewhere. The one per case concept is a fantasy perpetrated by those who really WANT it to be true, either because their venue got better than average distribution, or because they're still hunting for the chases. Even if it WERE true though, one per 20 boosters isn't the same as one per case. You don't want to only appeal to gamblers; they're not as stable a sales factor as your more conservative consumers. Give the more stable elements an incentive to buy by the case and many of them will.

I don't think the mass-market release of something you won cheapens, in any way, the effort and skill you utilized to win your Starro. Especially when the mass market release came months after that tournament series ended.

Nor do I think the mass-market release, that comes months after the initial opportunity to acquire something, is a bad thing. It helps promote the game, makes players happy (though I suppose you may be the exception?), and helps retailers by allowing them access to product with an exclusive reputation.

It's win-win as far as I am concerned.

I think this issue has been beaten nigh to death. Mistakes were made, miscommunications occurred. #### happens. What do folk want, a written apology?

I had the good fortune of being one of four Envoys asked to work GenCon 2009, right after NECA acquired WK. I can tell you that there were, maybe, four (!) guys working for WK at that time.

And yet, the set got released, the prize kits went out, and the game marched on.

I'm not saying it didn't suck for some folk who didn't get their kits, but let's cut some folk some slack, eh? Let it go for crying out loud.


Case figures are not chase figures. I know I keep on saying this, but it is more than just semantics.

I've nothing against case figures, bring 'em on I say. I also have nothing against chase figures, love 'em.

But, industry-wide, they are two different things in both theory and execution and should remain so if case figures are introduced into Heroclix.

More for me to collect? I'm all for it!

This has also been debated ad nauseum.

I prefer the mail-away brick model and feel that the most prominent barriers to a successful program are:

a) hammering out logistical details within the redemption process (cc payment for example)

b) folk who cannot overcome their sense of instant gratification

To date, each of the mail away figures have been a new sculpt (with one exception) and a new dial.

The one in-store figure we received was a repaint with a new dial.

If the breakdown between the two distribution models reflects the above, I will take my chances and mail in for a dynamic new sculpt, rather than receive, in-store, a repaint.

Just my $.02.

I love Horrorclix. I would love it if the games were compatible.

I remain optimistic.

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Okay, let me rephrase. I'll assume you know what you are talking about with the chase rarity in games that I and quite a few other Heroclix players would never play. But your assumption that we don't play other CMGs/CCGs is from out in left field. I've played and been an avid collector of Magic (started playing just after Beta), V:TES, Rage, Overpower, SWM, DDM, and a couple other collectible games I'll bet you've never even heard of. I've also dabbled in other collectible games (MonPoc, L5R, Shadowfist). My opinion after all of my years of experience in collectible games is that NECAWK would be better served with a chase distribution of one per case with 4+ chases. You can't simply take the model used in another game, targeted to a very different market, and think it'll either a) work with Heroclix or b) make Heroclix's current system look good. All your example does is convince me that I am smart to have never considered trying that particular game.

I agree. Some of the gambling should be taken out of the equation with chases, so that they'll appeal to a wider part of the customer base.


You might be positive about this, but that doesn't make you more right.

If we're expanding the list beyond collectible games, I have played literally hundreds of different games over my decades of gaming. I've traveled to other countries to compete in some tournaments (for Warhammer Fantasy Battle, I've been to a dozen GTs, an equal number of IndyGTs, and played in UK tournaments twice). I've traveled shorter distances to play in Magic and Heroclix events. I run games at gaming conventions, and I've been running a Warhammer Fantasy IndyGT for going on 10 years now (the SAWS Challenge - space still available for the SC X! ). The regulars in my venue ALL play other games besides Heroclix. I would hazard a guess that the bulk of Heroclix players play other games (certainly there are plenty of other games mentioned in discussions on this board, MonPoc, Magic, SWM, DDM, and now Yugioh are examples that spring to my mind readily).

I daresay that my gaming experience could be a large part of the reason why I want something different (IMO better, but YMMV) from Heroclix. You're quite right that I do not, nor would I ever after reading your post, play competitive Yugioh, however.

Ok Im only going to address this point and actually a different reasoning for why the numbered brick figure thing caused a sell out so quickly.
First the worlds finest was one of the coolest brick figures they ever made making demand higher than normal and when you add in the numbering concept you make the demand even higher for people who often dont buy a brick and send it in. The limit they had on brick figures have always been there by the way. All they had ever made was 5000 brick figures for any set prior to that but they didn't sell out so quickly because they never announced it was limited. if they hadnt announced the limited number it would have taken much longer for it to sell out. if you ask me it was a great marketing idea for wizkids cause it all but ensured they would actully sell out the set and all the brick figures which generally didn't happen as evidenced by avengers and justice league brick figures never selling out.

#1. Duo figure fever. The duo mechanic is neat, and 1 or 2 per set (like Cap & Bucky or Batman & Robin) would have been okay. The gradual creep of more duos makes it harder to build teams we want, however, because we're getting figures stuck in pairs that haven't been made as singles or drastically need remakes. If the amount of duos increase much more, it'll become HeroesClix.

#2. Power Creep. Icons Starter Batman weighed in at 47 points and was cheered for his high playability, efficient dial, and flexibility for team building. B&B Batman weighs in at 74 points (even the Bruce Wayne AE is 48 points to be more expensive than Starter Bats). AA boasted the Lamppost Batman that is sought after not just for being a chase, but also for being incredibly playable (and weighs in at 120 points, approaching triple Starter Bats cost). Even back to Justice League with OotS Batman (arguably the most popular version) weighs in at 75 points.

The increased point cost of newer figures (Hand Ninjas costing more than the old Daredevils, Atlantean generics more expensive than Aquaman, etc) reduces the total number of figures able to be placed on a team. For a game in which the action token is the core mechanic, these decreased team sizes almost completely obsoletes the use of powers like Leadership and TAs like JLA and Avengers. Even TAs like Batman Enemies, Superman Enemies, Xmen, and Teen Titans take a beating when you can't have many figures actually carrying them; they increase in value exponentially as you bring additional teammates.

Expensive figures are fine, but the average figure in a set should not weigh in at 100+. There was a day when the goal was to have 2 figures per 100 points to avoid being out-actioned. Now we're harder pressed to have more than 1 figure per 100 points.

#3. Retirement/Golden Age&Modern Age. Call it what you will, the fact is that the vast majority of mainstream popular teams cannot be fielded comic accurate outside of the unrestricted format. I'm not talking about obscure villains or D-lister heroes; I'm talking about building teams like the X-men and Teen Titans. I'm honestly expected to field Titans with no option of Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy, or Cyborg? As if the power creep of dials wasn't already a huge discouragement to using our old figures, they had to step up and outrightly forbid them in most official use.

#4. Numbered Buy-It-By-The-Brick. I'm fine with the mailaway (though I did prefer the in-store), but numbering them in some false claim that they're more valuable, and then limiting the number of people who can get them so that the incentive to buy bricks from the local brick-and-mortar stores is squashed was not the way to inspire people to move more product. After about two weeks after release, there's no point in buying a brick; you'll not get the figure and you'll have better luck rounding out the collection on the secondary market.

#5. Elimination of the Judge/Envoy. I realize that some people had crooked judges who were just out to horde prizes, but every Judge I ever had was someone who ultimately loved the game. They wanted to hog prizes because they wanted to play them, or at the very least they wanted to own them as some completionist set OCD. A judge is a heroclix judge because he enjoys the game; a retail vendor is a vendor because it's his job and his goal is to make money. I realize that there are probably some good venues out there handling things correctly with the prize support, but I haven't played at one yet. Since the change, I've seen our prize support sold on eBay during HoT, and "Um, we didn't get any" for B&B. When I've got a full set already, there is no way I want to buy more boosters for sealed events without prizes. It seems to me that entrusting this to the store owners resulted in more of them being sold on the secondary market and less being available to actually win as prizes. They may as well call them eBay exclusives.

Those are my beefs. Not judging on anyone elses, but from where I stand these seem to be the moves that have been most detrimental to our attempts to get more people to play locally.

I beg to differ...

As I had literally just started playing during the Starro tourney I really had no chance in heck to win him but I was OK with that sine I got my Starro GL, FLash, Auqaman, and GA. When M&M came out I had some playing time under my belt and won my Esmee, Charles and e-Vine, but missed out on Protected and Warbound. At the time I really didn't care about bout Starro (going for 100-ish on eVil-Bay) , but I did want both those cards... imagine my surprise when I saw that I could buy Starro for what I could buy two pieces of CARDBOARD for. After the tourneys BOTH Protected and Warbound were going for upwards of $45 or more.

So yeah 10 dollars or so difference for both equal about the same value as your Starro. Also PnP is a heck of a lot more degrading than a mass market release in my opinion. If you get beat by a guy using Starro at least you know he had to pay or trade for it, but if you get beat by a dude using a bunch of printed out LE cards it kinda just stings.

DISCLAIMER: Now on eVil-Bay Starro is still rocking at around $70-$80, where as Warbound and Protected are sitting at $25-$30. So it's now about $10-$20 dollars difference.

As far as the the rest of the OP:
1. I Disagree: Hey they are a company, they want more money... can't fault them for that. Seriously though, how many times did you get to use your Starro before the Mass Market release?

2. I Disagree: How many times do they need to apologize for this mistake? Also they did try to rectify the situation as soon as they could, sorry they didn't ask you personally if you needed a kit.

3. I Disagree-ish: Everyone WANTS a chase but hey if you don't pay you don't play. I personally save enough money to buy two cases at release I get what I get. Yeah I got Kal-L, no I wont trade him, and yeah I got both chases out of HoT, so I can't complain about the distribution. In fact I like it how it is.

4. I Agree-ish: I like in-store BibtB, but I also like numbered mail-a-ways, when the system works. I'll admit I am getting more than a little peeved at the system in place now and hope the change it for WoS. I didn't have a problem with WF, SS:I, I didnt want CPoC, I dig RagSurtur, I am waiting STILL for Bats/Cats...

5. I am meh: Where as I would never play HorrorClix, I have played mixed games. If my opponent want to bring a hoard of Zombies against my West Coasties, JLI/Super Buddies, or Seven Soldiers I will gladly get my hands dirty and go all Rick Grimes on them.

Ok so in other words "No offense but your situation involves you and mine involves me so therefore mine matters and yours doesn't". That's what your post says. I gave a perfectly valid comparison and your only refute is "they are cards and worth less to start with"? It doesn't change the point. And just to counter your response, yes they were worth less to start with but they also dropped WAY more in value (as in they became available for FREE instead of having to buy one through a store). So I'd say that offsets the "they were worth less to start with". As for the rest, sorry but I think it's on you if you "don't feel like you won something special" or that it "isn't worth displaying" anymore. The piece you won is still the piece you won. If WK had released the Starro figure with a different dial one of two things would have happened. The store Starro would have been worse and caused people who didn't win one to complain. Or it would have been better and caused people who did win one to complain. And in both scenarios, completionists would have complained because there would now be two versions to collect. Try looking at things from a broader point of view. You won a valuable figure. You got it before anyone could buy one in the stores and you got it without having to pay or trade for it. But that's not enough... you want to keep it out of the hands of other people so that you can feel special. Sorry, I can't get behind that line of thinking.

As for chases, I said it's NOT the same. That was kind of the whole point to my post. They are not the same but one leaves WK less prone to returns or complaints was my point.

I would say their worst mistakes are generally gameplay related:

#1) Reprinting items that shouldn't have existed in the first place (Con Artists in Universe, the Protected Feat). It's one thing to make a game design booboo with some elements that are too good for their cost, but it was made all the more worse by them having their gameplay life extended beyond their original retirement dates.

#2) Having an inconsistent or ill-devised point formula that doesn't reflect gameplay value, resulting in figures with improper point values.

#3) Missed opportunities to improve weak game aspects (Injustice League TA, Smoke Cloud) while pumping up ones that are already strong (Perplex).

Assuming that you have any right to know what that reason is..... F

Shipping dates get delayed all the time with no explanation given or owed. This is no different.

i agree that WK missed an opportunity to sell more of its product by not making horrorclix compatible with heroclix. i bought a brick when it first released, and while it had some fun innovative ideas for individual characters, the game play was not as good as what was offered w/heroclix. i'm not sure why horrorclix had to be its own game? i would have bought more if they were compatible, and everyone at my venue has said the same thing.

why complain about starro? i won him too, and its still my greatest victory in heroclix ( i didnt lose a game in any of the JL sealed events leading up to starro or in the starro event itself).