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So, is Range considered to be different than Range Value, thus not a Value? How am I supposed to know that from reading the Rulebook?
COMBAT VALUES
A character has five combat values. Four of them appear through the stat slot next to the symbol of the same type: speed, attack, defense, and damage. These values may change when you turn the character’s combat dial. The fifth value is the character’s range for ranged combat attacks
That would be the big reason for them using the AoE rules for Pulsewave, to make the intent more obvious.
Yes, it was a replacement value. No, the intent was not for you to replace 0 with half, then replace that with 10. Yes, it was possible under the old rules. And now, under the new rules, it doesn't matter any more.
Whether or not "as if" is considered a replacement value, and I'd say it is, the calculation of the range is separate from the calculation of the area of effect. Whatever range turns out to be after all replacements and modifiers are applied, the area of effect is half of that. There is only one replacement happening so there is no ordering and only one right answer for the OP's scenario: 5 range.
Whether or not "as if" is considered a replacement value, and I'd say it is, the calculation of the range is separate from the calculation of the area of effect. Whatever range turns out to be after all replacements and modifiers are applied, the area of effect is half of that. There is only one replacement happening so there is no ordering and only one right answer for the OP's scenario: 4 range.
I think you're wrong here. 10 - 1 = 9. Half of 9 is 4.5 for the AoE. And the rules says round up so it would be 5.
They groaned, they stirred, they all uprose, Nor spake, nor moved their eyes; It had been strange, even in a dream, To have seen those dead men rise.
Whether or not "as if" is considered a replacement value, and I'd say it is, the calculation of the range is separate from the calculation of the area of effect. Whatever range turns out to be after all replacements and modifiers are applied, the area of effect is half of that. There is only one replacement happening so there is no ordering and only one right answer for the OP's scenario: 4 range.
Actually, no. Under the new rules OP's scenario isn't right.
Replace Sauron's range with 10.
Modify by the -1 Perplex for a range of 9.
Area of Effect is half of 9, which rounds up to 5.
He would have to modify Sauron's range by -2 in order to get an area of effect of 4 squares.
Under the old rules he was fine, despite the prior debate, as he could have replaced with the 10, replaced with half, then applied the -1.
That would be the big reason for them using the AoE rules for Pulsewave, to make the intent more obvious.
Yes, it was a replacement value. No, the intent was not for you to replace 0 with half, then replace that with 10. Yes, it was possible under the old rules. And now, under the new rules, it doesn't matter any more.
I'm still having a rough time seeing the flow of applying the Replacement of Range for the AoE of Pulse Wave. How would this work with Nerkkod? Why is the application of Range Replacement for the PW:AoE considered different than any other Replacement timing?
UNDERSEA: When Nerkkod occupies water terrain, modify his damage value by +1 and his range becomes 10.
Nerkkod is in Water.
Nerkkod uses Pulse Wave.
The Area of Effect is half Nerkkod's Range.
Halving Range is a Replacement.
Range Becomes 10 is a Replacement.
Why can't you Halve his Printed Range of 4, then replace that 2 with 10?
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
With the amount of times you are Ninja'd I swear you must have the Past Keyword
I'm still having a rough time seeing the flow of applying the Replacement of Range for the AoE of Pulse Wave. How would this work with Nerkkod? Why is the application of Range Replacement for the PW:AoE considered different than any other Replacement timing?
UNDERSEA: When Nerkkod occupies water terrain, modify his damage value by +1 and his range becomes 10.
Nerkkod is in Water.
Nerkkod uses Pulse Wave.
The Area of Effect is half Nerkkod's Range.
Halving Range is a Replacement.
Range Becomes 10 is a Replacement.
Why can't you Halve his Printed Range of 4, then replace that 2 with 10?
PW AoE is not a replacement. It's simply looks at what the current range is and states it'll only apply up to half of it.
Take a look at Charge wording and PW wording.
Quote
CHARGE
Give this character a power action; halve its speed value for the action. Move this character up to its speed value and then it may be given a close combat action as a free action. This character ignores knock back.
This is a directly replacement as it specifically tells you to half his speed value.
Quote
PULSE WAVE
Give this character a ranged combat action even if it is adjacent to an opposing character; the area of effect for this attack is half the character’s range. Draw lines of fire to all other characters within the area of effect, including at least one opposing character; these lines of fire ignore all game effects except for walls, blocking and elevated terrain. Game effects possessed or used by characters with a line of fire drawn to them are ignored until the action has been resolved. If a line of fire is drawn to more than 1 character, this character’s damage value becomes 1 and is locked. Each character hit is dealt damage.
In this case it's not halving the range, it instead tells you the effect only extends equal to half the range. So nothing is replaced in this case.
They groaned, they stirred, they all uprose, Nor spake, nor moved their eyes; It had been strange, even in a dream, To have seen those dead men rise.
I'm still having a rough time seeing the flow of applying the Replacement of Range for the AoE of Pulse Wave. How would this work with Nerkkod? Why is the application of Range Replacement for the PW:AoE considered different than any other Replacement timing?
UNDERSEA: When Nerkkod occupies water terrain, modify his damage value by +1 and his range becomes 10.
Nerkkod is in Water.
Nerkkod uses Pulse Wave.
The Area of Effect is half Nerkkod's Range.
Halving Range is a Replacement.
Range Becomes 10 is a Replacement.
Why can't you Halve his Printed Range of 4, then replace that 2 with 10?
The area of effect is NOT a replacement value. You calculate your figure's range. The area of effect is half of that. Nothing in Pulse Wave changes your characters range. No replacements, no modifiers.
MJOLNIR'S SONG: Give Thor a power action and move him up to half his speed value. During the move, he may be given a ranged combat action as a free action.
It's been ruled that the use of "up to" is not a replacement, but a maximum. Maximums and minimums apply after you've done replace/modify.
So when Thor uses Mjolnir's Song, he still has a movement of 10, but he can only move 5 squares. If you perplex his movement by +2, his movement is now 12, so he can only move up to 6 squares as his maximum is half of the final value.
Because Area of Effect isn't range. It might be based on range, but it can also be based on other things, like adjacency (Energy Explosion).
Still not completely following the logic. I accept that this is the ruling, but it still doesn't make sense to me.
the area of effect for this attack is half the character’s range.
Range, as defined in the Rulebook, is a Combat Value
Combat Values A character has five combat values... ...The fifth value is the character’s range for ranged combat attacks
Pulse Wave AoE is based on the Character's Range, a Combat Value, which is Halved. Halving is defined in the Rulebook as a Replacement
When a character’s combat value is reduced by half or doubled, those are also replacement values.
The First Golden Rule dictates the order of Replace then Modify
Whenever a combat value needs to be calculated for any game effect, the controller of the character whose value needs to be calculated starts with the printed value, applies all replacement values in any order
This chain of rules states that I should be able to have Nerkkod Pulse Wave for 10 range when he's in water. Is there anything in the printed rules that illustrates why he shouldn't be able to? If the only thing preventing this is a decision from the Oranges, then this needs to be addressed in the next Player's Guide.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
With the amount of times you are Ninja'd I swear you must have the Past Keyword
Still not completely following the logic. I accept that this is the ruling, but it still doesn't make sense to me.
the area of effect for this attack is half the character’s range.
Range, as defined in the Rulebook, is a Combat Value
Combat Values A character has five combat values... ...The fifth value is the character’s range for ranged combat attacks
Pulse Wave AoE is based on the Character's Range, a Combat Value, which is Halved. Halving is defined in the Rulebook as a Replacement
When a character’s combat value is reduced by half or doubled, those are also replacement values.
The First Golden Rule dictates the order of Replace then Modify
Whenever a combat value needs to be calculated for any game effect, the controller of the character whose value needs to be calculated starts with the printed value, applies all replacement values in any order
This chain of rules states that I should be able to have Nerkkod Pulse Wave for 10 range when he's in water. Is there anything in the printed rules that illustrates why he shouldn't be able to? If the only thing preventing this is a decision from the Oranges, then this needs to be addressed in the next Player's Guide.
Area of Effect is a new "thing" in Heroclix. It is a separate entity from everything else, and has its own section in the rule book.
AREA OF EFFECT
Some powers and abilities use the term “area of effect.” An area of effect allows a power or game effect to target more than one character. Characters within the area of an effect are affected even though they may not be within the character’s range or line of fire.
The sentence I italicized shows that Area of Effect is, on its own, independent of range. It just so happens that Pulse Wave uses a character's range to define that particular Area of Effect. It still is not modifying or replacing a character's range.
The range value is not being halved. I think that's what you are missing. The formula for area of effect uses range value, and whatever half your range value comes to is what the area of effect is.
I get what you are saying, but the range is never replaced with half of itself. The full range goes into the formula and remains unchanged, half of that number is the AoE. If instead there was a power which halved the range and then used the halved value,that's a replacement.
The range value is not being halved. I think that's what you are missing. The formula for area of effect uses range value, and whatever half your range value comes to is what the area of effect is.
I get what you are saying, but the range is never replaced with half of itself. The full range goes into the formula and remains unchanged, half of that number is the AoE. If instead there was a power which halved the range and then used the halved value,that's a replacement.
Range is half. It is being Halved. Range is a Combat Value.
Quote : Originally Posted by eMouse
Because Pulse Wave now goes to the character and says, "What's your range?"
The character calculates their current range using replace, modify, min/max.
Pulse Wave takes that result and says "everyone within half this value is a target."
While Pulse Wave's area of effect might be based on the character's range, its area of effect is not the character's range.
I will abide by this, but it still doesn't follow the flow of the rules as defined in the Rulebook, and there is no entry in the Player's Guide that supports this decision. I abide "because we said so".
If the rulebook did not specifically state that there are five Combat Values, then specifically identify them as: "speed, attack, defense, and damage. ... The fifth value is the character's range for ranged combat attacks.", then I would have no issue with this.
If Pulse Wave had different wording than "the area of effect for this attack is half the character’s range.", then I would have no issue with this.
If anyone can show me, in the printed rules, that a reference to "range" is applying a character's Range Value in a fashion that it is not considered a Combat Value, then I would have no issue with this.
As it stands, this strikes me as a convoluted way to get around a poorly worded effect structure. Area of Effect is new. I expect rough patches with new rules. I would like to see clarification in the Rulebook or Player's Guide.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
With the amount of times you are Ninja'd I swear you must have the Past Keyword