I'm not sure about that. Because the power says you are doing just that. She is drawing LoF from the opposing character in this case Batman, to Batman. Batman drawing LoF to Batman sure sounds like Batman drawing LoF to himself. And crossing hindering doesn't count when it's the square you're occupying.

If batman were in hindering and attacking a character with Stealth, but the only square of hindering terrain was the square batman was in - you're saying batman could target any such character, except himself? Because now the square of hindering suddenly 'counts'? What rule undoes the "don't count hindering if it's the attacker's square" rule?

Please do note:

This clearly specifies this rule is only for attacking, not for outwitting. The line of fire will be considered hindered between the outwitting character and the outwitted character even if the only square of hindering in that line is occupied by the outwitter.

Implicitly, based on the current wording of Stealth, no. Stealth used to be different, in that it worked on both turns. This had the benefit of a stealthed Batman not being subjected to opposing Probs, but it also meant you couldn't prob Batman either. Even if batman himself had Prob, he'd have to turn off his Stealth in order to use it on himself. Stealth was reworded in part to balance it a bit and in part to get rid of this nonsense. That being said, I'd say the current word at least implies that sometimes a piece can't draw Lof to itself.

Dear god, yes! We're saying the exact same thing Anthony. Yes, if the lof is to the same square, the hindering will block the lof. Thus, Maria drawing lof FROM Batman TO Batman IN hindering IS blocked.

Nonono, you're ignoring what I'm saying.

MB

Maria is adjacent to Batman. Batman is in clear terrain. Maria is in hindering terrain. Maria uses outwit as a free action, using it normally. Batman is in stealth, so Maria can't outwit him, the line of fire is blocked.

That's what I'm saying.

Incorrect:

Any line of fire or path of movement that crosses hindering terrain
(including the square occupied by the target) is labeled a “hindered” line of fire or path of movement. A hindered line of fire is treated as a clear line of fire for the purposes of powers and abilities that require a “clear” line of fire, with the additional effects below.

That section deals with the situation you are talking about. The section you quoted strictly deals with attacks, of which you correctly noted that Outwit is not an attack.

You are completely ignoring the additional effects below which outline what a hindered line of fire means.

Also, wouldn't that support the idea that Maria can power action outwit Batman while he is in stealth?

You can't have it both ways. Either Maria cannot free action a Batman standing in clear terrain while she stands in hindering terrain OR Maria can power action outwit Batman while he is in stealth.

I can see the argument for either, but I cannot see the argument for neither.

How are you even being serious right now? You know that a character standing in hindering can draw a lof to a character not standing in hindering. Stealth or not.
The line that we both quoted about attacking does apply here. What is required to make an attack? A lof. And don't say "not for close combat attacks" because hindering has no bearing on close combat attacks so clearly they were talking about ranged attacks.
I'm not gonna repeat myself about Batman being in hindering. The lof is blocked, no matter where she's drawing the lof from.

You're not listening. None of my examples are attacks. I'm changing all of the names to make this simpler.

Outwitto is standing in hindering terrain. The Stealther is standing in clear terrain. The Stealther has stealth. Outwitto is adjacent to The Stealther. Outwitto DOES NOT WANT TO ATTACK. Outwitto wants to outwit. Can Outwitto use outwit on The Stealther? If yes, please quote rules to justify. If no, please quote rules to justify.

New scenario:
Smartie has a power that says he can use outwit as a power action to count range and draw line of fire from an opponent's square. He doesn't have the free action outwit part. It makes the scenario have less possible points of confusion. Now, Smartie is standing in clear terrain. Hidey is standing in hindering terrain. Hidey has stealth. Smartie uses a power action to count range and draw line of fire from Hidey's square. Can Smartie use this to outwit Hidey? If yes, quote rules. If no, quote rules.


Notice, the only thing that says yes for scenario 1 is the same thing that then must be applied and must say yes in scenario 2. However, if you say no in scenario 2, the same rule must apply to scenario 1 and you must also say no to that. Please, show me how I am wrong, citing every rule necessary in full, no shortcuts. It will only lead to more confusion.

If the Outwitter can draw a lof to attack then they can draw a lof to Outwit. I don't need to quote any rules for that.

The 2nd scenario requires the Outwitter to draw a lof to a person with Stealth that is occupying hindering terrain. A lof that crosses hindering terrain is blocked if the person has Stealth. The Outwitter is not occupying that square.
All of the pertaining rules have been quoted 37 times. I'm not digging anymore.

Hmm.

Well, Stealth says lines of fire to this character are blocked, not from.

Maria's ability says that you can draw lines of fire from an opposing character.

I think we need clarification on whether or not there's a difference between lines of fire to or from characters. I can't think of many instances where this has come up.

If characters in stealth can use probability control from Stealth (maybe there's a ruling on that?), Maria should be able to pick a character in stealth to draw lines of fire from for her outwit (but not be able to target that selected character in stealth ironically).

Yeah ... I just encountered much the same today. Can we get an orange or something on this one?

I follow the line of thought of drawing out of the hindering as the origin point = "not hindered" or else, as stated, your line (from center of your square in hindering) is "hindered" when it comes from that square and targets a guy with stealth standing in clear terrain, but everything I've played through/read, indicates that the origin square doesn't seem to count in that case for "hindered" status.

Yet, if that's true, and Hill uses a Power Action to pick a different origin square, shouldn't that hold true as well as long as that line doesn't leave that square?

This is odd, and the way it was parsed out by anthony is really hitting the nail on the head of the matter.

Additionally, I think tzemptzin's "to" and "from" are kind of central to this, as that's really what Maria's doing with that power action (vs. free action). Instead of drawing a line "to" an enemy character, she is drawing a line from it to itself. Seems different enough.

Mostly, though, it's anthony's breakdown that interests me the most.

It seems like the answer is that when drawing a line "from" a point of origin, the terrain present *in* the point of origin is irrelevant (or else stealthy guy in clear terrain gets "hindered status" from that line coming out of the point of origin that is a square of stealth terrain). So if Maria gets to draw from, then that terrain at her new point of origin is irrelevant, right?

The compelling piece seems to come from the example anthony gave of where both of these line drawing things take place on the active character's turn, when stealth would be active on the defensive character's turn.

Hello all,

I sent an e-mail to the address line we keep getting referenced around here, and to their credit I received a very fast response.

I'm copying it down below in quote tags.

So, it would seem that the person most right would be tzemptzin and his "to" and "from" elements that he keyed in on.

When drawing the line "from" the hindering, it doesn't matter. But when the line is drawn "to" that same hindering, the terrain type matters.

So, for the beginning of the line, the terrain seems irrelevant, or is not really a contributing factor. The problem comes from the target terrain square and/or anything in between (for the case of stealth protection). In that case, the same target square's terrain type is both irrelevant for the one drawing the line, but then relevant for the "to" part of where line goes - in the case of the same square, the terrain type ignored for the initiation of the line is then later applied when the line ends in the same square/terrain type.

As you see above, there were no rules or anything quoted, but the response is clear enough and explains (to my satisfaction anyway) the particulars of her (and this type of interaction in general) power and stealth-type characters.

I'm not meaning to get this thread going again. But, if I only possess one character on the map, can Maria Hill outwit that character from that character? The way things are going here, I would say yes (depending on the terrain (no if it's hindered unless she can somehow ignore hindering for line of sight)) based on this discussion?

PLAYING BOTH SIDES: Once per turn, Maria Hill can use Outwit. When she does, she can be given a power action instead of a free action to count range and draw lines of fire from an opposing character.

Am I understanding this correctly?