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I think you're reading too much into this buddy. Let's try to break it down *DJ TrickyFinger, drops a beat!*
Here are all the rules for starting a game:
PREPARING FOR BATTLE
Once all players have assembled their forces, there are still a few steps to go through before the battle can begin.
STEP 1: REVEAL FORCES AND ESTABLISH THE FIRST PLAYER All players reveal their completed forces. Then, each player rolls 2d6 (reroll ties). The player with the highest total result gets to choose who will be the first player. When playing with more than 2 players,
the player with the next highest total gets to choose who will be the second player, and so on.
Each player turns the combat dial of each of his or her characters to the starting position. The starting position has a click number marked “1” and/or is the click to the right of the starting line.
Once a character’s combat dial has been turned to its starting position, players can turn the dial only when directed to do so by a game effect, such as taking damage or healing.
STEP 2: CHOOSE MAP AND STARTING AREAS
The first player chooses the map where the game will occur. After the first player chooses the map, the player to his or her left chooses the starting area—an area of squares inside a purple boundary line—where he or she will set up his or her force. If there are more than two players,
continue clockwise around the table until everyone has chosen a different starting area. In two-player games, the chosen starting areas must always be on opposite sides of the map. If either player’s force will not fit within the purple lines, all starting areas increase by one row and one column but can’t overlap another player’s starting area. Starting areas can be extended until each player’s force will fit in their respective starting area.
STEP 3: PLACE CHARACTERS
The first player places all of the characters on his or her force on the map in his or her starting area. The player to the first player’s left then places all of his or her characters in his or her starting area. If there are more than two players, continue clockwise around the table until all players have placed their forces in their starting areas. You will constantly pick up your characters during a game to look at or turn their dials; you may want to mark the square your character was in so that you always return it to the correct square.
Once Steps 1–3 are complete, play begins with the first player.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Copycat:
"INFILTRATE MY ENEMIES: Before placing characters in your starting area, you may choose an opposing character that is 100 points or less. Copycat becomes friendly to that character's force and that character becomes friendly to your force. Any game effects assigned to each of them is now assigned to the other. When Copycat fails a roll for Shape Change or uses Regeneration, after actions resolve, this effect ends and any game effects assigned to each of them is now assigned to the other."
Ok, each player reveals their force and determine who goes first. Copycat now states that before placing characters in your starting area, you may choose a character and that character becomes friendly to your force. No figures have been placed in the starting area yet. We're still in Step One.
Copycat alters the way we normally start a game, I place my force, you place yours and we play (Copycat allows the player to "swap" one figure on the opponent's force with Copycat.)
Also, placing characters in your starting area is not turn-based (I place a figure, then second player, then back to me, and so on...)
I've seen the confusion it creates when you each player has a Copycat but in general, the intent is pretty clear on what is supposed to happen.
Hopefully that helps. Otherwise, send an email to the deps and get some learning in you!
It's not turn-based, but if you go first, you DO place your pieces first. The 2014 rules specifically state this. This is one major issue with the way her trait is worded, and why it's creating so much confusion
Copycats effect activates before any player places their figures on the map. If both players are playing Copycat, then each players Copycat effect will resolve before players place their figures on the map. Copycat's effect does indeed force you to switch figures with your opponent. Once all switching has occurred, each player would then place their figures on the map.
Hope that helps.
Chris, Heroclix Rules Deputy"
Direct from the Rules Deputy, for all people coming into this thread now.
I still find it odd that Copycat does not just state "when you reveal your force, choose a character" and "place the chosen character as if it were part of your force". It would alleviate a lot of questions, I think.
For real.
Also, how were we supposed to gather that you actually physically swap characters from the power description? Whatever.
He still doesn't quite answer the problem though. "Both Copycats resolve before placing characters" So the player that won the map roll gets to resolve first? And if he takes the opposing Copycat? What then, does he get to Copycat again since he hasn't placed characters yet and he now has a friendly Copycat?
Yeah, the physical swapping of the figures is implied (also in the other ability where it refers to the figure that Copycat "exchanged" with), but it shouldn't be implied. It should be explicit.
Also, how were we supposed to gather that you actually physically swap characters from the power description? Whatever.
He still doesn't quite answer the problem though. "Both Copycats resolve before placing characters" So the player that won the map roll gets to resolve first? And if he takes the opposing Copycat? What then, does he get to Copycat again since he hasn't placed characters yet and he now has a friendly Copycat?
It honestly sucks, how confusing this piece is. It's a very big idea, with too little design-time applied to it, it seems. Reading her trait as-is still conflicts with rules, in my opinion. But that's the biggest issue, it's in my opinion due to the massive amount of assumptions I have to make. Even if I agreed, I would still be piling implications to reach a point (like the fact that it takes place when revealing your force which is only technically before your place pieces).
Sorry I don't have access to that email and I cannot take your word on it. This will need to be confirmed by either the Arb or a deputy.
Otherwise
Yeah, but I also got an email from them and it says that if I go second I cannot legally use her power since the first player has already placed his/her figures.
No offense meant towards you Bluerat, but this is specifically why the Email CANNOT be the main venue for rules communication.
You do realize that the rules people aren't connected with this website right? What happens if they never post here again, which I wouldn't blame them if they did? Where do you expect to find answers?
You do realize that the rules people aren't connected with this website right? What happens if they never post here again, which I wouldn't blame them if they did? Where do you expect to find answers?
I've been beating this drum for awhile....
I would actually prefer if the rules team was not primarily located on this site and the Facebook group. I would very much so prefer that Wizkids/NECA have their own website with a rules Forum for people to go to and ask their questions and for the only official responses to come from that forum by the Arbiter and his Deputies.
Trying to use Email is a faulty method from the start. It is too easily manipulated by those who are less tech savvy than I am, and I can barely turn on a PC.
I personally would never trust a "ruling" that someone tried to show me on a printed or digital copy of an email. They are way to easy to manipulate if someone wished to do so.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by jonidschultz
Dragon is correct. Dragon is always correct. Never argue with a Dragon.
Trying to use Email is a faulty method from the start. It is too easily manipulated by those who are less tech savvy than I am, and I can barely turn on a PC.
I personally would never trust a "ruling" that someone tried to show me on a printed or digital copy of an email. They are way to easy to manipulate if someone wished to do so.
Sending an e-mail is creating so much work, especially when 10 people more then likely have the same question. Why send 10 e-mails out with the same thing when you can post once for everyone to read. I wouldn't trust someone else's e-mail either. I have had a judge say to me, I don't care what other people post about rulings, till it's in Orange I'm not going by that. As we all know judges at venues aren't always right (no offense) there's a lot of rules. This whole e-mail thing seems like leaving rulings in the judges hands more and less of an actual Orange ruling.
Everyone is free to email the rules team at [email protected]. If a person does not believe the ruling from an email they claim is from us, they can send an email to us themselves or have the Judge of the event email us.
We get repeat questions all the time. None of us mind answering the emails, so people should not let that be a concern. Please send us as many emails as you like, but be aware that we only will respond to emails with actual rules questions.
Thank you very much.
Click the links below to find out about tournaments in San Antonio, TX
Everyone is free to email the rules team at [email protected]. If a person does not believe the ruling from an email they claim is from us, they can send an email to us themselves or have the Judge of the event email us.
We get repeat questions all the time. None of us mind answering the emails, so people should not let that be a concern. Please send us as many emails as you like, but be aware that we only will respond to emails with actual rules questions.
Thank you very much.
That's fine that you don't mind answering them, Chris. But it would make a world of difference if the Final Word could be expanded. Or a system like MTG's Oracle/Gatherer could be set up. If someone could look at the pieces in a set before release and proactively answer and post answers before the questions are even asked.
Everyone is free to email the rules team at [email protected]. If a person does not believe the ruling from an email they claim is from us, they can send an email to us themselves or have the Judge of the event email us.
We get repeat questions all the time. None of us mind answering the emails, so people should not let that be a concern. Please send us as many emails as you like, but be aware that we only will respond to emails with actual rules questions.
Thank you very much.
I'm happy that you can answer as many questions as you guys get, but that doesn't help at 7pm in the middle of a tournament when you can do a search on here and get an Orange answer. I'm also sure replies aren't right away when I would e-mail you after 7pm.
Stupid question perhaps, but does Copycat's trait do anything if she's placed in the starting area at a later point in the game, say as a reinforcement character when playing with Yugioh rules for instance, and there are still characters in opposing starting areas?
Yoda of Borg, we are: Futile, resistance is. Assimilate you, we will.
Stupid question perhaps, but does Copycat's trait do anything if she's placed in the starting area at a later point in the game, say as a reinforcement character when playing with Yugioh rules for instance, and there are still characters in opposing starting areas?
No. Her trait is only activated at the start of the game before any characters are placed in the starting areas.
I would actually prefer if the rules team was not primarily located on this site and the Facebook group. I would very much so prefer that Wizkids/NECA have their own website with a rules Forum for people to go to and ask their questions and for the only official responses to come from that forum by the Arbiter and his Deputies.
Trying to use Email is a faulty method from the start. It is too easily manipulated by those who are less tech savvy than I am, and I can barely turn on a PC.
I personally would never trust a "ruling" that someone tried to show me on a printed or digital copy of an email. They are way to easy to manipulate if someone wished to do so.
My wish was granted.... but how has it worked out....
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by jonidschultz
Dragon is correct. Dragon is always correct. Never argue with a Dragon.