The new multi-pog AP artillery don't actually worry me that much.

First, they're expensive.
Second, they're inaccurate (take a look at the drifts).
Third, they have high min arty ranges.
Fourth, they have narrow front arcs.

All of which makes them much less nasty than the SS Arrow IV.

I take it all back. The RotS Kelswa Tank makes me smile :grin:

I'm sure he'll do it anyway but hopefully i'll be able to save him some time with my pursuit of knowledge in all things jade falcon.

-Jade Falcon

JF gun emplacement (6/10)-

Here is an infantry that has a very long range and the homing beacon special equipment. which gives it an effective 9 attack when shooting at people. Other then that he's a hefty 24 pointer and I'd honestly have any other jade falcon infantry.

JF flamer team (7/10)-

I gave it a higher rating than the gun emplacement because it is definitely more playable. It's got flamers until it dies people!!! It's not very effective as a base and break unless it's protecting artillery, but if you're protecting why would you break? Another average unit. The arcs pretty bad though...

JF trackbike (7.5/10)-

This thing is perfect for the role of ditracting mechs and large vehicles. Why? It has AP, 12" movement, and a base attack of 8. This means that if you base something in the rear it has to be very careful to leave you there otherwise you could actually hit it. And 2 damage is nothing to laugh at from a 16 point unit. I didn't give it an 8 because it should have started with inf or evade.

JF sniper team (7/10)-
I can see these guys defending artillery quite well if your opponent has infiltrating, but if they don't you can move it up the field. Downside is the arc is small, the infiltration isn't far, and the dial is short. Other then that I can see the widespread use of this unit as a gaurd for arty.

JF sylph battle armor (9?/10)-
Half vtol half infantry this unit is one to be afraid of! He can scoot and shoot apparently and he has an 8 attack with 2 pulse. And while not so great in the defense apartment, he gets a free spin with basing and may be able to capture. 20" movement helps as well. The reason for the ? is that we don't know if he can capture or scoot and shoot yet, he can free spin though. Either way he's cool in my eyes.

JF gray death scout armor (7/10)-
Bottom line, I hate units where you have to make a decision. You can either SU infiltrate 16" into the field and lose bypass or you can keep bypass and waste infiltrate... I would only use him as a bypass unit and spend that extra 9 points to get me a syplh. BTW what kind of a sick idea is a 21 point bypass unit? Well... I suppose it' not as bad as liao. he does have a 1 damage pulse though so if you're going to shoot don't go taking on any RotS elementals...

JF elemental battle armor (9/10)-
Defense is good, damage is good, first 8 click of life infantry, 8 attack with AP 2 damage, 8 jump jets and a 17 defense all for 20 points... amazing simply amazing... only flaw i think it has is lack of armor but that might have made it more expensive.

JF gnome battle armor (9/10)-
Basicaly this is my favorite assault battle armor in the whole game!! It is 8 clicks deep, has 4 clicks of 2 damage AP, an 8 attack, only a 6 movement and a 16 defense... but... it's only 18 points!!!!! Oh I forgot the IT it gets at the end of it's dial (last 3 clicks)

JF Skadi swift attack vtol green (5/10)-
Most of you are probably like.. huh? Hold your horses I'll explain. Homing beacon is almost completely useless, everytime you use it you also take damage, how mcuh damage would you do? 2! that's it... just 2. It's not very swift either with a movement of 16". Oh did I mention its defense is only 18 flying high? Do yourself a favor spend 6 points more and get an elite one.

JF Skadi swift attack vtol elite (8/10)-
This is a very intresting unit, I can see it shooting a maxim and pushing it so it can't unload then bringing in a mech that can do 5 damage and finishing off the transport killing the tank inside. I give it a 9 for tactics, and 10 for it's PC, but only a 7 for actual stats. It's got electric camo, and the tsemp isn't single use thank god. Very good unit.

JF kite reconnaisance vehicle (5/10)-
Only thing this thing has going for it is its speed and point cost.
Maybe blocking artillery.. other then that it's #### with no ranged attack. Do yourself a favor take a sylph.

JF Nacon armored scout (5/10)-
Hmm I see a trend in these but I can't quite put my finger on it... OH YEAH THEY SUCK! So what if they can do 4 damage at an 8" range? All one has to do is base it in the back and do 3 damage to it... 3 damage is all it takes to ruin 37 point of your battle force. Do yourself a favor take a sylph.

JF Cardinal transport (7/10)-
It's cheap, it's fast for a transport, and it can hold 2 elementals in its belly. For faction purity it is good for your infantry. It can't hold a full quad though so you would have to use 2. Good news is that by pushing you can reach the opponents deployment zone with elementals on the second turn. These are great for helping to protect those easy to hit mechs as well.

JF Hasek mechanized combat vehicle (8/10)-
I like this one a lot, it has a 3 pulse at a 10" range. Coupled with a 12" movement and 360 degree arc. It hurts but is mainly for drawing fire and attacking small targets (unless that target is one of the mechs from this set lol). It also can bring an infantry along for the ride, like an ELEMENTAL!!! Or maybe even a gun emplacement lol. Overall this is a good cheap unit though.

JF Skanda light tank (6/10)-
Well what can i say about this... it's decent. No... it's not... not for 50 points.. Do yourself a favor take a sylph... and an elemental.

JF MHI amphibious apc (3/10)-
Don't take it, it's a piece of ####, take the cardinal it's better and cheaper and can't be based/charged.

JF sniper artillery (8/10)-
I've seen the marker for it and you need a 10 to hit fortunately... the only drift it has is straight forward. This unit has a great defense as well saving it from vtol and pesky basers. Only downsides are no armor and no AP.

JF kinol MBT (7/10)-
Now when I first saw this unit I looked at its point cost and its first clicks and dismissed it. However at second glance I can't ignore that this little bugger stays around a very long time, and is pretty good against artillery. Average at best.

JF long tom artillery (7/10)-
This would be a good artillery of the JF! 2 AP pogs with a 2" blast
only need a 10 to hit. Downside is defense. Fire away! Oh very vulerable to basing and enemy artillery though so watch out.

JF Kelswa assault tank (7.5/10)-
GREAT DEFENSE!!! GREAT DAMAGE!!!! 10 attack isn't bad... 360 DEGREE ARC!!! Needs armor... speed is 7. Above average slightly if you ask me.

JF Salvage mech mod (3/10)-
Not practical at all for this army, this is bad on top of the fact that it SUCKS cmpared to the other ones. Do yourself a favor and grab 3 sylphs.

JF Ocelot (8/10)-
This mech isn't bad at all it has 4 pulse! If played slowly and correctly this mech an do a ton of damage. I don't have to tell you its defense is low that's a given.

JF panther (6/10)-
Not nearly as good as the ocelot, if you have an ocelot use it instead of this. They are practically the same as far as ideas except the pantherhas less damage potential but is more pushable.

JF stinger (6/10)-
I don't think this is a bad unit at all except it needs jump jets to be effective and it justdoesn't have them... too bad woud have made a great "hit and run" unit if it only had jump jets.

JF spider (0/10)-
there is a reason I gave it that and i hate them so much for it. 1st the agility needs to be secondary and the 3 damage needs to be primary. ooo it's fast... who cares!? IT NEEDS JUMP JETS!! If they had switched the primary with the secondary and gave it jump jets this would have been one of the best units the jade falcons have! as it stands now? ####!

JF Koshi (5 or 7/10)-
This is good or bad depending on what you can pull off with it. If you can dfa in the rear arc then follow up with pulse then you can do 10 damage without taking any yourself for just over 100 points. if you can't get a rear arc then... you can do 4 and get smacked.

JF shadowhawk IIC (7.5/10)-
This is one of my top choices for non-unique jade falcon mechs. it has an 8" pulse, can do 5 damage dfa, and has a good heatdial. Once again the low defense makes it risky without proper support.

JF Griffon (6/10)-
it's versatile in roles but if you push it too far it can end up doing 4 damage to itself but by then you'd probably be dead already. Jade falcon mechs can't have bad heat effects.

JF Eve buhallin (7/10)-
Stays around for 8 clicks, can do 4 DFA. Has a AP and pulse attack as well. All for 145 points. Not bad.

JF jiyi Chistu (8/10)-
One of my favs! It has an 18" long 2 damage AP attack. Then after softening them up do a 5 damage DFA attack. You have to watch out for charge monkeys though, he's not realy repairable but he does have 13 clicks of life.

JF Shone Rosshak (8/10)-
Expensive yes, worth it? YES! 5 ap attack at 12", can do 7 damage on a dfa without taking any himself, HAS A DEFENSE THAT'S ACTUALY REASONABLE. If you support him correctly he should be the best unit JF has.

JF lyza Helmer (8/10)-
High damage output! Only 135 points! This is the best eyrie in my opinion with vincent close behind.

JF Vincent DeLeon (7.5/10)-
While not an official jade falcon unit (such ####!), He's much like Eve but a little better in my eyes. He also has a 20 defense which is almost reasonable.

JF Benj malthus (4/10)-
He's got a decent damage output, but with a 16 defense and about 40 points too expensive I doubt he'll ever see the battlefield.

JF Ichiba Pride (7/10)-
Much like shone yet with better armor and no starting AP.
Later gets AP and IT but only at a 10" range. Not as good as shone in my opinion.

JF Trovic Nilloba (2/10)-
Hmmm, he can do 9 damage in a single attack! The second he does that though he dies... what were they thinking 8 clicks deep on a 230 point unit? understand people... would you rather have a 230 point mech that's 8 clicks deep, and has an 18 defense? Or would you rather use 2 whole groups of elementals and a sylph?
I would choose the latter!

Well that's all of them... now it's 1 in the morning and i've got to get to sleep... Anyway hope it's informative to you guys. I want you to realize though the JF army if you are using a mech requires A TON OF BASE AND BREAK! otherwise it WILL NOT WORK!!!

@ aerothorn...

Actually I had to unsign for Lacey. Stupid work couldnt get someone to cover my shift, despite more than a weeks notice, despite having worked every Friday and Saturday night for 3 months. Bleh. At any rate, Lacey is nearly 2 hours away, but if you are ever north of Seattle maybe I'll bump into you. Show you I'm not the boogeyman some would make me out to be. ;)

@ everyone...

Now that we've got the pog info...

HL Paladin
8/10

I'm not sure I'd call this unit cheesy, just solid. No AP, not particularly accurate. Hard to damage Peasants (or other base screeners) really just makes it hard to rip through and baselock the artillery. Highlander armies are SUPPOSED to be hard to rip through, right?

RotS Sniper
6/10

Well it lives up to its namesake, needing a whopping 6 to drift/hit a centerpointed target. Unfortunately it has only 1 pog, no AP, and its SE combination really doesnt have very good synergy. 23 defense might be really nice for frustrating VTOLs and ATVs. Much better than the other RotS artillery options, but ultimately a merely mortal artillery in a game where the mortal stuff has been obsolete for a while.

---Mercs---

Gun Emplacement
?/10

I heard a rumor that these guys are capacity 0 transports, hence undroppable. Is that true? It'll greatly influence the rating this unit gets. Expensive and firing a gimmick-gun, I'm not sure this unit is going to get a very good rating either way.

Sniper Team
5/10

Eh, theyre mercs so they cant help with formation shots so the long-assed range is somewhat wasted... but really, they only do 1 damage. The stats and SE combo arent bad... but this is still a 24 point unit that can only ever do 1 damage.

Gnomes
5/10

Flamers on merc infantry is bad synergy since they cant formation attack to burn a mech. Reactive armor on infantry is nifty though. I dont think these guys justify their 20 point pricetag. Another case of not bad... but not really good enough to bother with either.

Cardinal VTOL
5/10

Interesting. Potentially hard to damage through that hardened armor... but not a lot of offensive capability beyond the infantry cargo either. Unless theyre running a fair amount of AP in their army, fairly likely to drop off their cargo safely. I personally detest berserker dials so other people might like this unit more than I do. Cool sculpt. I'm curious what a Highlander version of this unit would have looked like statwise.

Skanda
5/10

Mmm. 16" range is nifty and all, but this unit is expensive enough that one could almost field a VTOL with even better range than 16". Infiltrate might make this unit handy for controlling a large section of the midfield at the beginning of the game... except that its lack of firing arc and easy breaking means it'll get baselocked nigh-instantly. 18 defense is unimpressive too.

Paladin
6/10

Not great accuracy inherently but reasonably friendly drift patterns give it fairly good odds for a drift-hit. As a merc artillery with decent range, good fire arc, and AP damage, it gives even the factions without decent artillery something at least average that they can use. 20 decoy provides some degree of safety from VTOLs and ATVs too. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'm glad this unit exists. Decent artillery is so important in this game that it is very important that all factions have access to some via a merc unit.

Kelswa
5/10

That 2/14" range is bad for a merc unit since he cant have formation-escorting infantry to cover his side blindspots. Decent attack and damage if you're willing to use tankdrop, although I'd probably save the points and go with the similar (but cheaper) RotS version myself.

Panther
2/10

18 defense. No agility. Poo. Nifty little gimmick on the heat dial, but it doesnt save this unit from being poo.

Koshi
3/10

Fortunately this unit has agility to save it from charges. Which means that it is "only" vulnerable to tankdrop, infantrydrop, vtols, artillery, etc. 17 defense is appropriate for average infantry (Highlander infantry usually have better defenses than this Koshi), not a mech. Not even a light mech like a Koshi.

Unique Tundra Wolf
4/10

Oh good, its 20 defense is higher than the usual 18 or so for this set. Unfortunately at 261 points this mech SHOULD have a 22 defense. Lots of firepower, lots of shooting range, etc... but none of that really makes up for the fact that tankdrop, charging, etc, can easily plaster this unit silly.

---The loyalist big picture---

Well, if you dont really care much about mechs, this set is full of good things for the Loyalists. If you do care about mechs, this set probably pisses you off pretty badly. Really though, think about it a minute... how many nonunique mechs from any previous set see anything other than casual play? The Liao Targe? Still, I fully understand and sympathize with the frustrations of those who are angry about mech defenses being as pathetic as they seem to be in this set. Maybe because I'm a Highlander player and we've had so few playable nonunique mechs from day 1 it doesnt bother me so much that there arent really any worthy mechs in this expansion either. Maybe it is the fact that my Loyalists did well for infantry and vehicles this set. Perhaps because the Highlanders finally got some good strong units without overstepping the line into cheese. At any rate, for whatever combination of reasons, I think I rather like this set. I've not looked at every unit from every faction yet, but I havent seen anything that really qualifies as cheese yet. If the cost of no major cheese in an expansion is that the mechs must have sucky defenses, I dont really have any problem with the tradeoff. We'll see if my opinion changes though, as I look over other units.

---Overall---

HL Infantry: 9/10
HL Vehicles: 8/10
HL Mechs: 3/10

RotS Infantry: 8/10
RotS Vehicles: 7/10
RotS Mechs: 2/10

Merc Infantry: 5/10
Merc Vehicles: 5/10
Merc Mechs: 1/10

FP as a whole, purely from a Loyalist viewpoint: 8/10

@ esau...

I'll leave the FP stuff to you, far as I'm concerned they can go hang themselves with an itchy rope. ;)

recieved your message to bad well mabey ill bring back some nice Highlander toys to Ohh and Ahh over.

Regarding the Paladin and Falcon Prey artillery in general.

I think for the most part the cheese factor is still full in effect. Its just that the advantages and disadvantages have been moved around rather than trying to address whether or not the units have been accurately costed.

For example, the Highlander Paladin. For some the big issue is the lack of Armour Piercing. It doesn't have it, therefore it is not overpowered. I beg to differ.
First, it has amazing field coverage. Probably the best in the game. From any point in the DZ, it can hit every point on a standard 36x36 board except for targets within its artillery minimum (which isn't that short) and the back strip of your board side. Unlike the Long Tom which is usually set at a 45 degree angle to improve its field coverage, the Paladin can be set straight forward with its back arc firmly planted at the table edge which gives it a strong defensive advantage.
Second, it has other very strong defence capabilities. So strong, that the only efficient way of dealing with it is to use other artillery. However, the long life means that it will be a hard duel unless the opponent has reactive armour (much like the extremely overpowered Liao Paladin). What this illustrates though is not that it is wrong to have a durable artillery unit but rather Wizkids decided not to fix their point cost mechanism for multi-pog artillery. Most people would agree that all multi-pog artillery units are underpriced and Wizkids solution was to make units that were expensive for other reasons, rather than the right reasons.
Third, its reasonably accurate. Artillery accuracy is determined less so by attack value and target number and more so by exploitable drift patterns. Its good to have both but its better to have favourable drift and the Paladin does.
Fourth, its a veteran. Small advantage but the majority of Falcon mechs are actually well optimized for blasting the Paladin and a little extra protection can't hurt.
Fifth, Flamer teams. A decent unit but gimmicky. One thing it does excel at however is artillery guard. Attack is good enough to torch ATV's and the reactive helps against counterartillery. And you can use'em with SRM Launchers and not get messed up.

I'm not saying its blatently evYl like the SS A4. Its not even the best Paladin but that doesn't mean its not cheesy.

OTHER OBSERVATIONS
I think Warflail is being a little generous in his assessment. THe infantry is dynamite although I still wish we got something along the lines of a really durable battle armour with heavy/reactive armour, kinda like a Cavalier on steroids. Anybody think its odd that the foot slogging boys have reactive armour and the battle armour does not?

As for the vehicles, aside from the Paladin and maybe the Kelswa I think we got roasted on vehicles so an 8/10 is a little much. Maybe I'm just bitter, they have two sweet looking VTOLS and we didn't get either with no chance of an LE. Bastards. This is uncharacteristic since we usually make out better on vehicles.

We got lots of Elites in this (as did ROTS). On the surface this is good but examined a little deeper, its not. First from a sealed/fluff perspective all we've done is given the Falcon's something with which to practice Zellbrigen on and even if we got appropriate defences, we'd still be in trouble since the falcon's have got universally high attacks. Come to think of it, it looks like the whole expansion has been optimized for the Falcon's to beat on. Furthermore, they're not even that good for the most part (infantry aside).

On the plus side, the Dragon's and Liao aren't completely dominating the set although filthy Tomark got some sweet VTOL love and we got none (I'm seeing a trend, first they dominate on Arty then on VTOL's).

As ever, nice to hear your thoughts Susano.

I suppose our vehicles arent that great aside from the Paladin and Kelswa... but the Pal and Kel are good enough that I was willing to shrug off the other vehicles when looking at the overall set.

You are correct that it is odd how the non battlearmored infantry have reactive armor while the battlearmored ones dont. I suspect the reactive armor represents not actual physical armor, but special infantry training on finding cover, spreading out to limit casualties from explosive weapons, etc.

I was thinking about the MHI Amphib a little earlier. I guess it is nifty that it grants all of our infantry access to infiltrate... but yeesh, it's only 7" infiltrate followed by a 3" move/unload. So if one were running a duo of Sniper Teams, you've got 3" (DZ) +7" (infiltrate) +1.5" (half the vehicle base) +12 (shooting range) for a total 23" threat range or so. Not enough to threaten the enemy DZ on turn 1 or so. Even if one moves 7" on turn one, then pushes to move/unload, you're only talking 30". All in all, the Shun just does the job so much better in every way. Oh well.

How exactly does DF dominate on artillary?

You got 3 pieces in CA, we got none. You also got one in JF that somehow manages to have higher defence than the Highlander variant.

In terms of overall effectiveness when it comes to DF Blahtillery, the only halfway decent one is the sniper in FP. These sum up previous DF Blahtillery perfectly:
1. Piss poor range.
2. Extremely accurate.
3. When was the last time you saw DF AP artillery?

As to the FP Sniper having higher defence...it's a sign of the times. DF getting armor SEs? HL getting good heat and attack values? Mechs with ranges which paint a portrait of pilots chucking rocks out the window?

They are definitely expensive and they do drift. But both the LI and HL ones will hit over 70% without line of sight or useing multiple pogs on a single target. With line of sight it's over 90% and if the LI uses all it's pogs on target it can ensure it'll be hit on anything but a critical miss.

They do have high minimum ranges. I can almost see the LI one pushing itself to get to its AnP so it can continue to hit multiple targets when they get close.

But, the SSw Arrow IV is still much better. Even the LI Arrow IV has some advantages over the LI Paladin.

Both the Highlander Gnome and Elemental takes 7 clicks to kill. Seven clicks pushes the Stinger and other light mechs in FP into salvage. Three of these infantry pieces could decimate any light mech in this set. Both also have 18-defense which is higher than a lot of the light mechs.

I also like the Sniper Team. Twelve inch range!! How can a man carry a weapon that shoots farther than a weapon carried by a 50-ton mech?? And do 2-damage AP?

Nice to see Highlander pieces that will be seriously sought after by everyone.

Probably the sniper teams are carrying portable tripod light (very light) Gauss rifles to get those ranges with uranium depleted slugs as ammo. Think railgun in Unreal Tournament 2004.

If you get a lot of greens, you die to Liao. The difference is, Liao equips armor on their 'mechs that isn't tissue paper.

If I had to make a choice on who to face as a HL/RotS player, I would choose Falcons in a hearbeat: they simply do not have the staying power or defense to last in a fight, no matter how many times they get an extra damage on you from Zellbregin.