When I have printed material telling me one thing and a rep telling me another, I consider that to be a problem.

I will play the way the game is structured. So the question here is very simple: how is the game structured?

I don't see why you or anyone else would think asking such a question should pose any difficulties, especially for the game's creators.

Knowledge is never a bad thing.

So, following Alex's timing, wouldn't it be:

1. Put effect on chain and choose targets
2. Exhaust
3. Discard a card

To me, I think it should be:

1. Exhaust and pick a card to discard (notice it's not in the KO pile yet)
2. Put effect on chain and choose targets

Actually, just like BEL and SEL calculaation, they should all be at the same time:

1. Exhaust, pick a card to discard, put effect on chain and choose targets.

I do understand Zaxx's side and I agree that Alex has not made a compelling argument of why you would do it in the order he has laid out.

I'm sure there may be some future reason for this but it just does not make sense because then you are introducting some type of "check for ability to pay costs" pre-subsubsubstep in there. Logically, in order to activate an effect, I have to pay the costs and then the effects goes on the chain, if you are going put any order to it. But, since there is no interruption of costs, then order really doesn't matter and as Zaxx has said... it should all be simultaneious.

Remeber guys that Alex also explained further

There *is* an order of operations here, it is not simultanious. The Avalon itself is one of the prime reasons for the order. Its makes it more logical, due to the fact that you cannot choose the same card you discard.

It also makes sense in this case due to the fact that Avalon has 2 'modes', and depending on the # of targets you choose, determines the cost.

Its just a more logical way of dealing with 'cost' effects.

That is incorrect.

The power you announce determines the number of targets chosen and the type of card you must discard.

Zaxx you are answering your own question.

The 'Brotherhood' character card in this case 'could' be legal to discard for BOTH effects.

"The power you announce determines the number of targets chosen and the type of card you must discard."

Exactly my point, when you trigger the effect, you must declare the targets. If you are announcing, you are choosing, and then you pay the appropriate cost. As i stated, a "Brotherhood" character card is a legal discard for BOTH effects, so declaring the # of targets is the true determining facter as to which effect will be used, and what the appropriate cost will be.

So it is logical in this case to choose the # of targets first, to tell the game which effect you are using, then discard.

Just my thoughts

Anyway, lets just wait for the Comprehensive Rules.

And what in anything I've said would lead you to believe I think it works any other way?

Let's recap:

According to me:

1) Announce power
1a) Pay all costs for said power
1b) Select all targets for said power (if necessary).
2) Place effect on chain.

According to Alex:

1) Announce power
2) Place effect on chain.
3) Select all targets (if necessary).
4) Pay all costs.

You'll note that I purposely grouped the payment of costs with the selection of targets.

As these are requirements for generating the effect, there's no reason to think that a discard would reach the KO'd pile before you've selected your targets.

While you may view the second model as logical, it is anything but. Given the lack of any explanation concerning that ordering, it's a contrived sequence which causes more issues than it solves.

Now surely there's more to what he said. All I'm asking is that we be given the complete picture so we may understand what we're supposed to do.

P.S.

The competitive season has begun. "Let's wait for the comprehsensive rules" is no longer an acceptable response.

"1) Announce power
1a) Pay all costs for said power
1b) Select all targets for said power (if necessary).
2) Place effect on chain."

Thats what, as that is almost the opposite of whats being said.

I originally disagreed with the order as well (if you read what i wrote to Alex). In thinking about it, it began to make sense, and i see nothing wrong with it. I am in the understanding that some effects might have multiple 'modes' of operation, and the order helps the game itself sort it out. That is what i think the reasoning is.

I see your point, but its clear that its wrong, based on Alex's description, we'll just have to wait, or get an Official response from either Alex or Mitchell.

Okay. I've read section 409 of the MtG rules and also see where Alex is coming from.

It seems like 'announcing' the power is the same as putting it on the chain.

However, I have a question now, and I need it explained in VS terms, not MtG. If I do place the effect on the chain first, what if I don't pay the costs or I can't?

It would have to be negated immediately.

You would NOT be able to announce at all erick if you did not have the requirements prior to activation. The order outlined by Alex, I believe is simply a logical flow. For example if you wanted to activate the second effect of Avalon, you would still need at least 1 Brotherhood character in your hand, as well as 2 possible targets in the KO'd pile prior to declaring activation.

The interesting thing here is that the Brotherhood character itself 'could' be used as a cost for either effect 1 or 2, so you declare the target(s) first as a way of telling the game which effect you are going to use, and then proceed to pay the appropriate cost.

Paying the cost is also NOT a choice, the choice is made by you when you actually decide to declare activation, after that you MUST pay the cost.

It is the same for an attack, you cannot even declare an attack unless eligability is checked and veriified first, for example, a Support Row character without Range cannot declare an attack.

Yeah, I thought as much. I'm sure this minutia is only really important to us "Rule Junkies".

In reality, it's easy enough to explain how Avalon works and how cards and abilities can be played. I don't know if I would really tell a casual player that the effect goes on the chain prior to paying the costs but I guess I'm going to have to start.

go dci

LMAO...now thats funny.

If you can do better ...be my guest.

however, its quite clear from your words that you didn't comprehend the arguement, you don't know me, and pulled my words out of context.

Here is your "official" order:

1. Announce effect/place effect on the chain (same thing)
2. Choose target(s)
3. Pay cost(s)

If costs cannot be paid, press the rewind button to the point right before #1 (i.e. that player still has priority and if anything was flipped like a face down plot twist it is returned to being face down)