Wouldn't that be the ultimate business operation lol.

Eh. Sucks. How about we focus on Crystal Seer and a Watery Monarch build, with Spiritual Water Art - Aoi ? Hmm?

Crystal Seer will definitely boost up a Water Themed deck, once the effect goes off, it can be an amazing contribution and first selection for a RFP monster in order to summon Fenrir or even Aqua Spirit. With a magnificent Water Lockdown support of Ojama Trios and Mobius getting rid of the back rows, this might be a deck I would mostly love to build back up.

Some time ago, I used to run the Ojama + Fenrir semi-lock it worked pretty decently, but it lacked some speed, which Crystal Seer will definitely make up for it, and with the spread out rumors of Tribe getting a chance back in, OMG.

With the added extra support coming out now, Rippling Alissa which is definitely a must now in a Water Type deck, it can easily devastate the opponent's dreams of winning in a turn.

Phantom Dragonary Bronto, a great beatstick and probably a huge game ender in the right moment.

I can even see Cranium Fish seeing some play from time to time.

TAEV offers a whole slew of water support, too bad most of it sucks or is secret. Nonetheless I think water can actually be alot better now using a few of the taev cards

1) crystal seer: Great card, searchable with apprentice and reusable with salvage. She actually made me put the apprentice engine in my water deck. I always felt that water had some great beatdown support, but their defense was sorely lacking. The apprenitce engine leads to some nice defensive options along with free card filtering/drawing and monster destruction.

2) gemini summoner: this guy is great. Forget his effect of summoning gemini monsters(as this will not be a gemini deck) hes 1500 attack(1700 with ocean), searchable with grizzly, and reusable with salvage. He can be a wall(forcing your opponent to overextend), tribute fodder, and a beatstick.

I feel that these 2 additions are enough to make a beatdownish/control deck.

Heres a rough skeleton of what I just built 10 minutes ago.

Monsters:

2 apprentice magician
2 old vindictive
2 crystal seer
3 warrior of atlantis
3 hydrogeddon
2 mother grizzly
2 gemini summoner
2 mobius
2 b.e.s. crystal core

traps:
1 mirror f.
1 torrential
1 call
1 ring
3 dustshoot
1 spiritual water art
1 gravity bind

magic:
2 legendary ocean
1 salvage
1 level limit area b
1 heavy storm
1 mst
1 nobleman
1 goat
1 book
1 premy
1 pot of avarice
1 snatch
1 creature swap

not looking for deck fixes(havent even tried the deck out yet) just trying to spark up some discussion on a water/apprenitce engine decktype.

I think the stall they have is very annoying, especially since the deck has lots of ways to attack under it with fairly big monsters

apprenitce/grizzly, lead to alot of defensive options

and the rest just beat face.

Simple enough concept, I have wanted to build a good water deck for along time, I dont know that this is it, but I do think that water finally has some potential.

"Dropping your hand" as in unnecessary overuse of Abyss Soldiers ability. It's something that I see a lot of players do, even at SJCs and regionals. Just because a person can T8 it doesn't mean they can run any type of deck. You say there is no recursion? What about Salvage, or Dark Factory for normal monsters? Or you could RFG the monsters you dumped with Fenrir and Lekunga and do a RftDD. Even if you want to criticize Dark Factory and RftDD, Salvage is 'recursion' and card advantage.

You're saying you know how good it is, but you're saying that it isn't necessary. That's a bit disingenuous. What non tributes do you typically use in a Water Deck? What gets the job done for you better than Abyss Soldier? I'm not being sarcastic, I really am interesting in learning how you are being so successful without Abyss Soldier, because I might use it for my deck.

You are correct in what you say, but what I mention is in reference to other field spell decks. If you're comparing Water Decks to other decks that rely on field spells like Gravekeepers, Archfiends, and Harpies, for example. These monster perform quite poorly without the field spell card, Water Monsters can be effective without it.

The rest of what I posted was not in reference to you specifically, but since you commented, I will address it.

I know a lot of people enjoy going back in forth with hypothetical scenarios, but I really don't. I could describe a situation in which card trooper or Raiza could be countered...but there would be no point in arguing that. It would just go back and forth indefinitely, until our discussion degenerated into an argument with insults, and that's not why I came here.

So...let me ask you something pertinent.

How does your Water Deck beat Card Trooper Decks?
Where are you going with this? Nobleman and Confiscation can be poor top decks as well, and no deck, no matter how well constructed will be able to top deck perfectly. You are critical of the playing methods I describe yet you do not offer an alternative. I honestly don't mind that you are critical of what I am saying, but at least I am putting something out there. If your going to criticize me do it to be constructive, not to win an debate. Mention to me a strategy that you think I would be better off with.

You're saying that what I posted about the use of ALO is common knowledge, yet no one else mentioned it in the thread. I think the thread would be better if you didn't make the assumption that people knew all the basics. If they did Water Decks would win more often.


Everyone's favorite fallback argument. A lot of players like to say "it didn't T8 SJC". Yet they have no clue what is T8ing in the Pharaoh's tour, Asia, or at Worlds. People blame a stagnant metagame on cc decks...but it's because people don't try anything new that nothing wins. A Zombie Deck(without BLS or CS) made T8 at an SJC in an era where BLS and Chaos Sorcerer were Legal. Before the Ban List a Gren Maju Deck made it to worlds, and it had no Envoys. Recently, a weak Gearfried deck made T8. Don't imply that Water Deck can't be successful. That Gearfried deck was poorly made, and the duelist made big mistakes. A Water Deck can definitely T8. The reason why these decks rarely do well, is hardly anyone plays them, and even fewer play them well.


I could say that consistency is the responsibility of the deck builder, but I don't want to argue semantics. You are correct, theme decks tend to fail because people usually make the deck too theme oriented, and don't know what to supplement. Other people will have two copies of Mobius and one treeborn in a deck and call it a Water Deck. Actually, this is a topic that should have been discussed in this thread in more detail...what cards should and should not go into a Water Deck.

If you had a nickle for every intermediate player you would be broke. But if someone gave you Nickels, then you might have some money. The D and the R are right next to each other...it's kind of petty to criticize someone on their spelling. I'd prefer not to waste my time with that.

It's easier to arrive at a conclusion than to justify it, isn't it? It's easy to call someone intermediate, but it's not so easy to post advanced tactics, now is it? What tactics have you posted in this thread that you consider advanced? Rather than tell me how mediocre I am, why don't you show me how great you are so I can know how advanced the person I'm talking to is? Just saying concluding that I'm intermediate, doesn't cut it. Educate me, and give me some advanced Water tactics so I won't be intermediate anymore.

Belgian Blue and Deck Wraith...I don't get any enjoyment out of arguing with people I don't know over the internet. I'm the kind of individual who believes that more or less, everyone can get along. I'm sure in person we could have some good trades, and entertaining duels. You guys appear to be more knowledgeable than the vast majority of the other guys posting on this theme...you should be posting better tactics. You guys seem to be making the assumption that people know what you know, and they don't. If they did they would be building better decks. Since you guys are intelligent, you should hold yourselves to higher standards.

A lot of the other strategy threads are lackluster. This one should be a whole lot better. For starters...you guys could both mention mistakes people should avoid when making Water Decks...and go into detail for people who aren't automatically going to get everything. Or I could do it, and you can call me an intermediate player for doing so. Or we could all work together and make an extremely informative thread.

The Zombie Master tactics thread isn't lackluster nor is the six Samurai tactics thread, oh wait that's my deck discussion :)

In my opinion if you are going to play A Legendary Ocean, then you have to make use out of it's level down effect. To do so you really either need to play a rush/beatdown deck using ALO to normal summon Giga Gagagigo and Terrorking Salmon to beat face with a bunch of Gagagigo and Warrior of Atlantis. That way you get the support of Brithright and all the other great Normal Monster support out there to help you continuously put big beaters onto the field.

The other option is to run Levia Dragon since he's down graded to a single tribute and can blow up the world and attack directly. I'm not sure how this would run with Warrior of Atlantis, but it definitely seems more stable than back in the day when I ran the deck.

*Prepares to mutilate image* Or you guys can go in to my Fabulous Fairy Discussion thread (FFD Thread for short)

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I have considered going back some roots and making a Water Control again. I feel that with Crystal Seer, Mobius, Treeborn Frog, possibly Hydrogeddons, running Water Art Aoi is viable. (I'm a fan of the art, so sue me). We could go for something like Watery Monarch deck, with the Aoi for extra hand control and such.

Unnecessary but necessary nevertheless... the simple fact that Abyss Soldier can only use it's effect once per turn hugely limits Soldier's potential, if I bounce a monster/s/t card from the field, in order to take a clean hit or/and clear the field from threats, makes for Soldier's effect practically a waste if you don't use it again. Unless you don't find discarding a card and accomplishing nothing useful.

Soldier's effect while powerful is not an effect you will use just for the heck of using. Soldier's effect has 3 (which I can assure) powerful functions as I see it:

1. Stall, makes your opponent wear out either their summon, or try and cancel out their Mirror Force, Sak Armor's etc. (this just a temp measure). Or taking out a high leveled monster (unlikely) since most tribute monsters are Monarchs and0 by bouncing back a Monarch, you are better off handing your opponent the game.

2. Clean out the way for a hopefully big hit, with any luck a game ending shot.

3. Reusing your own cards (Premature would in my opinion the best one)


Salvage, is not a recursion card since you have still to give your normal summon away, Salvage is a "salvage" card, a way to fill your hand back again in hopes of gaining leverage, it can help out Abyss Soldier of course. But using Salvage to have back vanilla monsters? Who in their right mind would use vanilla monsters, having much more effective monsters to use? The best use for Salvage is Amphibious which is a pretty decent card with ALO on the field, otherwise it's just another vanilla monster.

Yes, Fenrir and/or Aqua Spirit are definitely the best way I can see dropping monsters in the grave useful, though there are better ways to do it, Morphing Jar, Snipe Hunter, etc.
Believing a potential of a card doesn't imply it MUST be a staple in a deck, I know how good Snipe Hunter is, and I don't necessarily have to splash it in an Earth Deck. Accepting a cards quality goes much further than needing/having to use it.

If you must know, I don't fill my Water decks souly with "WATER" monsters, and that's the loss of plenty of people, trying to fit in only WATER monsters in order to maintain a theme.

Just so you can get a good idea on a very powerful and efficient WATER deck, try out Fenrir + Ojama Trio, splash in Yomi Ships for stall and Mother Grizzly's for deck thinning and graveyard filling.

I've seen Gravekeeper's work out without Necrovalley on the field, as I have with Harpies and WIND support as well.
I mention it, cause I've ran WATER decks ever since I can remember.

Hypothetical scenarios? Now that my friend is where you are wrong. Why? Because unfortunately in this meta IS what you will run into.

I don't currently have a Water Deck, could you please quote where I said I had one? If I were to counter it, I'd go through the high road with Spiritual Water Art - Aoi's.

So are you saying that drawing 2 ALO's in your initial hand would equal me drawing a Nobleman and Confiscation in my initial hand? Whole lot of advantage having 2 ALO's with a start.

Why would it be mentioned if it is common knowledge? Assuming has nothing to do with it, since there is another WATER field spell "Umi" which increases ATK as well... so what other effect does ALO have over Umi?

Really? Just FYI, I do know what they are and have been, and guess what? Most of them are variants of a Cookie Cutter, and if they have themed based credentials they all have at least one Cookie Card in it. Fact is you can't jump over reality.

Actually you can't define what cards should/could go in a WATER deck, or any deck for that matter, since this thread is for strategies, each deck builder applies the information given with different strategies and creates his/her unique deck.


Doesn't make much sense.

You could always go back to re-read the whole thread and get educated as well, of course placing an opinion on a particular case doesn't show much advanced knowledge either.


We hold ourselves in higher standards, and that's because we can be sure to say we know what we talk about.


Every thread should be as good as the next one.

Great stuff here. My point is that just because a person can activate Abyss Soldier's effect, doesn't mean they should. Swords is also a good card to bounce, if you actually run it. I don't see it much nowadays though.


The definition of the word recursion is not as restrictive as what you make it out to be. Anyways, you misunderstand me. I wasn't talking about using Salvage to get back Vanillas I was talking about Dark Factory to get back Vanillas like Giga Gagagigo and the like. I don't think that the best use for salvage is bugroth...What about Mother Grizzly, Yomi Ship, Penguin Soldier, Nightmare Penguin, Revival Jam, Maiden of the Aqua(lol), and Crystal Seer?

Abyss Soldier will last longer than Snipe Hunter and do more damage due to it's higher attack. Snipe Hunter, though a good card offers no guarantee, which Abyss Soldier does. Unlike Morphing Jar, Abyss can be used the same turn you play it, and it doesn't have to worry about Nobleman. Furthermore you don't have to worry about dumping monsters you don't want to get rid of with Abyss Soldier. I don't believe Snipe and Morphing Jar are inherently better, they are different methods with different pros and cons.


Yes, but comparatively speaking...Water Monsters tend to have better base stats than Gravekeepers and Harpies and their wind support, and have more useful and consistent effects.

I assumed that you were still running at least one of those builds. My mistake. Either way...Water Art is an interesting way of dealing with it. Depending on how much bounce is present running D.D. Designator might not hurt either. If I were to run Snipe Hunter in a Water Deck, I would use trap dust shoot as a counter, but since I don't I like using Cold Wave. It doesn't directly counter card trooper, but it stops the threats behind it.

Card trooper and Raiza won't automatically win a duel for a person. You yourself mention a method to combat it, in the form of Water Art.

No, I am saying that most cards are potentially bad topdecks. Generally speaking having two of any field magic card in the opening hand is bad. Kind of Like having Mobius and Raiza with no means to tribute summon them.

However my point is very simple. If you're not running Abyss Soldier in a Water Deck...which is the only deck it's good in...you're letting it go to waste.

Running pure Water Decks definitely sets up a whole lot of limitations. The only plus is you might get an advantage out of ALO/Umiruka, and it will be easier to RFG water monsters for Fenrir, Aqua Spirit, and Lekunga.

Though you already posted it, Fenrir + Trio is a solid example of strategy. It's a bit old, but it remains an effective strategy. It beats waiting for their scapegoats anyways. So far, from what I have learned from this post you put heavy emphasis on mother grizzly to get your deck working. That's one way of doing things. Do you run creature swap, or are you not a fan of it?



Those decks were not CC variants. Especially not the Gren Maju deck. Jae Love's Zombie Deck and the other Zombie Deck absolutely were not CC variants. You must be thinking of something else. I prefer the strat discussion to arguing with you, so I will not be indulging in any of your posts that are strictly argumentive.

Of course not, but nevertheless the effect is what makes it even playable, in this day and age, a beatstick monster just won't cut it.

Recursion for the game definition means a way to constantly swarm the field with monsters from the grave, thats why V. Lord, Phoenix, etc. etc. have a recursion effect, you can expand it into hand cycling if you wish to as well, but it will still limit itself as self-recursion if it really had any real benefit, the reason why Serpent was so good, and why Treeborn will remain an almost must for a water deck for the time being.

I doubt anyone would run Revival Jam, Maiden of the Aqua, you said it yourself (lol)... Mother Grizzly, Yomi Ship, I rather mix them in with my deck with Pot of Avarice since they make for potential battle stoppers.

Soldier and Penguin while good they can jack up your strategy as well as increase the chance of your opponent on building another strategy, not always will it be a good idea to bounce something back to your opponent, (see example in previous post)... Penguin is not a bad card but it can't really pull it's weight around anymore.

Seer is the only card that I might see worth the hassle, nevertheless there are better options than Salvage, since this meta comes in very aggressive.

It's a very very very hard task to pull of maintaining a monster on the field for more than one turn, ATK and DEF means pretty much nothing anymore, unless you ram against a face-down high DEF monster.

It's much better to destroy a card than give it back to your opponent and still give him/her the chance to use it. Morphing Jar's effect is used to "refill" your hand and spread quickness to the deck, you won't set it when you have something you will use in the hand, that would just be a noob move.


I do agree on water monsters having very consistent effects, heck my favorite type monsters ARE in fact WATER.
Cold Wave? I don't get where you are getting to.

Not automatically, but a very effective way to get there.
The difference with it, is that you would only have to pull out a Brain Control and get an immediate advantage over your opponent and/or give the duel a dramatical change in one turn, which cannot be accomplished with fields.

Just because a card has a nice/good effect doesn't mean it needs to go in a deck, nor does it mean it goes to waste, but if you can find a better option for a monster, then hey, let it get to waste. I love plenty of underrated cards, and I do use them for fun decks and keep my promotion for them alive, but unfortunately they don't win tournaments or such, so guess they have to stay out of my decks.


And there another use for Morphing Jar. Lekunga is a nice addition if you are willing to get the DD effect for a quick OTK, which i've done several times already, surely is not a fool proof idea, but running several high ATK monsters, dropping them quickly into the grave and using Lekunga for removal and setting up the field for Return is quite fun to do.


I used to when Serpent and Goats ran the show, however Goats got back at me as well, if T.A.D.P.O.L.E. got it's effect while my opponent controlled it I would consider the use of Creature Swap even more, running it to swap Grizzly's and 1 - 2 other monsters just doesn't make up for it, probably Treeborn ftw.

It's not a argumentive comment, it is a comment, the Gren Maju and Zombie Decks, while good they didn't win, CC Variants did.

But for a 4 star it is better to have 1800 attack than to have not.


More Good stuff.

Revival Jam was in a deck that won a Pharaoh's Tour. I think it is a very underrated card. It is strong enough to kill control monsters, it can be searched by grizzly, and for a paltry thousand it can come back to the field for a tribute. Depending on my deck, I will choose between Salvage or PoA, but seldom do I run both...as you alluded too, that is a conflict of interest.

As for the Penguins...Soldier is still a favorite of mine. If I am getting swarmed it comes in handy. Nightmare Penguin is decent as well. Bounce just runs into problems against CyDragon and Treeborn. All the more reason to run designator.

It depends. Early game monsters don't last long, but late game it is a toss up, sometimes a monster can stay on the field for quite a bit. My experience has been that every little bit of life point damage makes a difference, so I do believe attack is relevant The short time Abyss is on the field, I want the most from him. Sometimes you have to set morphing jar...it's not a matter of being a noob so much as it is being in a difficult situation.


When it's card trooper, I'm not worried about the monster card, I'm worried about the spell and traps that allow it to take advantage of everything that gets dumped. That's where CW comes in. Cold Wave can make for a great opening play and can be handy late game, as well. I don't find trooper intimidating if my opponent can't set anything or play spells.

True.

Yes, fields are generally not good by themselves. However with a treeborn in the graveyard and a Levia-Dragon in hand, a field spell can be a wonderful thing. That is the synergy at the cost of consistency you were previously referring to.


I will agree to disagree, but I still think you are missing out. I've won lot of duels because an opponent either couldn't stop Abyss Soldier early game, or late game the bounce ended up clearing a unnecessary obstacle. Did you run Abyss when treeborn was legal?



Indeed. Lekunga is the most underrated Water Monster. Although since we are on the topic of morphing jar, it can be used to replenish a hand after overuse with Abyss Soldier. It's not extremely reliable, but when it works, it's amazing.


I like creature swap because it doesn't need specific combo cards to be effective, as long as you have something weaker than your opponent, you can gain field control. It isn't necessary to have two copies, but it can swing the game in your favor if your opponent has field control. It's another one of those good cards that can be a bad top deck.

Too bad T.A.D.P.O.L.E. is optional...it would work so well with water art and enemy controller.

Gren Maju didn't win Worlds, but it won to get there. As for the Zombie Decks, no, they did not win, but that they made T8 is impressive considering how few Zombie Decks were run in that meta. If more players ran Zombie there would have been better results.

wow, loads of opinions, great for deck help. anyone want to take a look? link in sig.

It would be easier if you told us what kind of problems you are having with your deck. That will give people more flexibility in trying to give you advice.

I go for effect rather than ATK/DEF power, yes, it can become a bit handy in certain cases, but a rare event it is.

Revival Jam was used for lp depletion, a form of Reversal Quiz, if I can recall correctly (don't remember the exact purpose) but it was for lp depletion usage.

After using Salvage countless times with a negative success rate rather than a positive one, I deceased it use. While it can give a leverage pull in a critical moment, it can not, I for one exchanged it for offensive cards, Smashings in that given time.

Penguins can be very effective, problem is, that bouncing back monsters opens up the so many triggering effects of monsters that go around these days (prime example of why Pulling the Rug became popular), Gadgets, Monarchs, Crystals, etc., D.D. Designators won't do much since most probably Penguins will trigger their effects when attacked, giving your opponent chance to reuse the monsters still.

With the speed and aggressiveness of this meta, duels are rarely prolonged into a late game, duels last what? 4 - 6 turns.

Difficult situations arise at any time, but even so, you still need to check out better options.

Cold Wave can be a nice opening play, I've always said that, but considering it's timing for activation it becomes a very risky card to play as well, Water decks rely a whole lot in spell cards, because of the naturality of their effects, more of a reason why I would not run Cold Wave, I rather run Magic Drains and drain my opponents hands quickly.


I've never seen Field Spells as having so much potential, even so, that your opponent can also take advantage from them.

Yes I used to run Abyss Soldiers all the time, one of my fav monsters... I think you mean Serpert not Treeborn.

I'm not going to revive your issues with being corrected, deck wraith seems to have spelled that out nicely and you seem to have somewhat adapted your manner to it, which I can only applaud. But I just had to point this error out. You say we should mention mistakes people make, or you could do it. What makes you think you, or I,have all the answers. It's our place to offer advice, not to tell people theirs is wrong and ours is the only way to go. This is the exact attitude that places you squarely in the category I placed you in. Most of us only offer our views, we don't pretend they are the only ones ...