FoD has seen more play than AA.

In a vacuum? In a vacuum, SS and AA both suck because there are no Leaders, Reservists, or teams in a vacuum, so they don't do anything.

quoted for historical import re: incredibly bad ideas

did you read the last sentance of the post? i said "where the power levels of the cards is ignored".

i put a clarifying statement in the post for a reason.

But I am:cry:

How good any card is is always dependent on the enviroment (the other cards that can be put together with in a deck and the meta).

Of course that does not mean that a card on it's own can not evaluated (like with the previews) but it is not a final judgement and can often be wrong (yet again see the 6 drop Cap or the Source).

And I have to agree with TOGORIAN25's assessment that Assemble should have been on the list. Hero's Welcome is not exactly being used much either, even though I find it better than Assemble, not even in ally decks, outside of casual.

I am sure there are casual decks using Assemble, most likely Justice for All decks, You could even make a (weak) argument for it in Reservist depending on the build if you do not have Mobilize, so it is not horrid by any means, unlike say Manhunter Spacecraft.

PS: And if we need to completely take the environment into account when evaluating the tutors, then Man of Tommorow could be considered just as bad as there are not exactly competitive decks around using that.

I'm sorry but it seems like you destroyed your own point.

how so? i was pointing out if FoD and MoD we're only on his list because Dr. Doom was so good. the tutor itself is much more limited in function than AA.

now i was having a little trouble finding the right words in that post, so i might not have been as clear as i liked.

I think a better way too look at it is that both Man of Tommorow and Avengers Assemble.are really good for a certain archetype, but that archetype itself as a whole is not powerful enough to be competitive outside casual. On the other hand a worse tutor like Manhunter Spacecraft is average at best even if in the archetype for which it was intended (Manhunter armies).

my 2 cents...

Definetes ( i might sound crazy but..)
Either
Zazzala 3 drop*
Either
Tattoed Man *
or
Devils Due*
Frankie Raye

Probables
Attend OR Die
Sorcerers Treasure
Some Random Jank That COuld work in a 10 card combo that no 1 will ever use

u ever played against Moloids Due???? Well I play it and the devils due zazzala tattoed man combo is crazy. sack 5 moloids put 5 counters on tattoed the remove all counters and search for 7 more moloids and devil;s due them all of while u have master of puupets up. i have dealt over 100 damage on turn 5 while having 3 master of puppets face up.

thats my 2 sense

p.s. i dont want them to be banned but i see them in the future, and zazzala shouold be banned because of how many army decks can combo off her.

In a vacuum, the comparison is pointless. In some games, +1000/+1000 is weak, in others mind boggling powerful, in yet others it /can/ be game winning... but is too easy to stop.

You /can't/ remove the context without making any comparison meaningless.

yes. tutors that search for good cards at a reasonable cos are good, tutors that don't are bad. That simple.

Toolboxing is nice, since if you can search for one of three cards, one of which will always be strong, that's fine... but search for one card per drop level, when that card is /Dr. Doom/ is pretty much just as good.

ok, what i am talking about is what the card does. and compairing it to cards that that do the same thing.

i will use one of chdb's post to help because he is correct.

here he objectively* compairs Avengers Assemble to Sovereign Superior. he notes Imput to Output with numbers to back it up**.

if we put Faces of Doom and Mask of Doom up to that same test we come up with slightly differant Input, either controling Dr. Doom or KOing a character you control. this is difficult to compair with other searchers but can be either easier or harder to do depending on the deck.

and now look at its Output. there are 7 characters named Dr. Doom currently in the game, with an 8th confermed in the next set. that is a very limited search card.

without compairing compairing the specific powerlevel of the output, you would think that FoD/MoD were vastly inferior to AA. which is what i am talking about.

*he is mostly objective, his negative outlook on AA causes him to interpret the data in such a way to futher his veiwpoint. this viewpoint is mostly correct, but it creates a situation where he makes it look worse than it is.

**these numbers dont include teaming up the deck. if we include teaming up (or even including the Brotherhood characters from MOR and other expansions) the cards take a statistally look better.
if we teamed up all the characters so that they work for the Team affilitations required for the card we would get:

1510*** possible inputs to the static 140 outputs for SS.

and

a static 63 possible inputs to 1510*** possible outputs for AA

that would make AA seem like a much better card****

***thats an approxamate number. there are currently 1520 character cards in the game. however there are currently 5 banned character cards and at least 1 reprinted character card (Dick Grayson <> Nightwing, Defender of Bludhaven). i dont remember if there are any other reprints, so i just rounded the number down.

****see i can manipulate the numbers too. ;)

EDIT::i want to point this out again, i am not saying that Avengers Assemble is better than Sovereign Superior. i am just saying that it is not a steaming pile of horsepoop

no, this doesnt speak of the quality of the card, it speaks to the playability in a competitive environment. The Source is a VERY good card, but is rendered unplayable in a competitive environment because the team it is stamped for is unplayable.

chdb list list of cards was "teams that have a playable Tutor". i consider this to be "quality". i consider AA to have the quality nesessary to be played. unfortunatly, like The Source, AA has been rendered unplayable in a competitive environment because the cards that it searches for are unplayable in a competitve environment.

note, i am not compairing the quality of AA to that of The Source.

also, your "drop at every level" compairson for Dr. Doom is largley false. FoD was played when the only Dr. Doom you had to search out was the 4 and 6 drops. and the main reason you ran the card was to go and get the 4 drop because if you didnt play him on turn 4 your chances of winning the match decreased by a large amount.

honestly, i consider MoD/FoD to be of a poor quality rendered playable in a competitive environment because of the high quality of cards it searched for.

do you understand my point?

well I don't know what the hubub is about the debate of tutors but in truth only the ones that aren't being used in the way intended or used in a method that is " over powered " are the ones that deserved to be banned. So far in my time in VS the only tutor I've had problems with is enemy. It allows for a versatility of drops of such high power that it abuses the variety the game has. Other cards such as devil's due, frankie ray, and cosmic radiation I can understand, they have been used in the past in ways unintended. However devil's due and cosmic are both team stamped, so their playability may go down after an enemy banning. Frankie has to much sickness to her, in testing I've been able to do unbelievable stuff with her.

I see flaws in that logic.

A card cannot be playable and yet not get played. A card cannot get played without being playable...

FoD is and was playable.

Therefore, Doom is a team with a playable tutor.


Avengers Assemble has seen play... as a /2 of/. In a narrow format.


His inputs/outputs idea is /not/ something I agree with.



It does not matter how many cards a tutor can search for. The chaff cards a tutor finds are irrelevant. The question is how many cards that would or could go in the same deck it finds.

AA requires you to discard a bad card (there are like almost 0 good leaders) to find at best an average card (Avengers reservists aren't individually good cards, they're just generic dudes that your other stuff can key off). Oh, and it gives you a +1/+1 counter.

The loss in quality/power playing the rather terrible crop of leaders we currently have outweighs any gain in consistency.

If you had to pitch Revenge Squad characters to SS, it too would suck.

Whamme, i dissagree with what you say there. i have made my point, said how i feel about it, as have you. i dont seem to be able to turn your point of veiw over to mine and you are unlikely to be able to change my point of veiw to yours.

at this point, i dont think that continueing the debate will be productive. so i bid you good night.