That's very true. However, look at it proportionally-

For the breakaway, you lost 50% of the likelihood. For the rerolling a 7, you lost 41.7%. For the 8, you lost 58.3%. For the 10, however, you lost 83.3% of your chance to hit. Relatively, the prob control will cause the person to fail more often...Sort of.

Well could you call HCRealms from 2004 back for me? I wasn't playing this game until the days of Crisis, so I'm still new and wasn't aware (although assumed) this debate was so old . That'd be grrrrreat

In order to answer to the original question "Are Outwit and Probability Control broken?" we need the OP to define "Broken".

To me "broken" is a game element that is so powerful in relation to the resources that it costs, that it comes to dominate the game...much as Firelord did back in the day. I understand that, back then, you had to play Firelord or you would lose against someone who did.

Since Outwit and Probability Control have existed just as long as Firelord did and yet, to this day, have not dominated the game in the same way, I would have to say that the answer to the above question is "No, they are not broken".

If the OP's definition of "broken" is different from mine, then I will gladly re-evaluate the question based on that definition once he provides it.

I agree that an overuse of either can be annoying. But it can also save your bacon. I have played a Gotham theme where every piece had outwit. did not help me much, really, in the long run as the opponent could still hit me, and wear me out. On the prob, in order to use it you have to have LOS, which means the probber can be hit. Target that piece, and woes tend to disappear.
On the flip side, last week I ran against a team that had three PC (I had one, Hourman). I hit (which was doing great for me -- if I remember I needed a 9). He had me reroll using all his PC chances. On the last one I failed, and used my own and hit him again, taking out the new Doom. It was frustrating, but boy did I whoop when I finally got him.
Again, they have their uses. Are they broke? IMHO I do not believe so. They can be great in use but can also be countered by other powers or figure placement.

I agree that an overuse of either can be annoying. But it can also save your bacon. I have played a Gotham theme where every piece had outwit. did not help me much, really, in the long run as the opponent could still hit me, and wear me out. On the prob, in order to use it you have to have LOS, which means the probber can be hit. Target that piece, and woes tend to disappear.
On the flip side, last week I ran against a team that had three PC (I had one, Hourman). I hit (which was doing great for me -- if I remember I needed a 9). He had me reroll using all his PC chances. On the last one I failed, and used my own and hit him again, taking out the new Doom. It was frustrating, but boy did I whoop when I finally got him.
Again, they have their uses. Are they broke? IMHO I do not believe so. They can be great in use but can also be countered by other powers or figure placement.

The answer is easy. Icons Supes should press his luck with the 34.03% chance of landing the ranged attack. That's better than the Martian Manhunter's 27.78% chance of hitting the 19, despite no re-rolling.

By "broken" I mean too easy to abuse and therefore destroying the enjoyability of the game itself for one participant. I realize using either is part of a person's strategy so, fair enough, I understand. I just don't enjoy playing against a team with them and I try to stay away from using either. I'd much rather see The Thing attempting to tackle The Hulk without someone hiding in the shadows taking away defense powers and another fig constantly erasing time. A much better fight would be had if the two behemoths just fought by their own strengths and wills. If I HAD to keep one in the game, it would be Outwit, because the power makes sense: A hero, intelligent or skillful enough in combat finds a way around another character's defense, sp, etc. and ignores it for a round. Got it. When it comes to PC, why does a team gain the ability to use it (even just once) just because they happen to be a few "Martial Artists" that happened to be in the same place at the same time? I get that "Well they do because that's the perk of playing themed teams" but it seems a tad odd to me. I also understand that some figs are known for PC in the comics and there aren't other powers that really showcase them any better than that power. And in today's game, if you don't play these powers "you would lose against someone who did." I realize this is all my opinion and we're all subject to our own, so take it with a grain of salt.

I think the big 3 powers (Outwit, Perplex, and PC) are all fine the way they are with one major exception: they're not costed nearly high enough. I could never understand how damage reducers got to be so expensive when they're so easily trumped. And look at the glut of cheap figs who get these dominating powers. It makes you wonder why you'd ever want to play a single fig over 100pts when 3 more useful figs have a cheaper combined cost.

Both powers have been part of the game since it first began. If they destroyed the enjoyability of the game, then the game would not have survived five years. Therefore they are not "broken".

But I suspect that this is not really about "broken" and more about "I don't like these powers". That's certainly fair enough but I should warn you that these powers are not going away anytime soon. You may not like them, but if you're playing HeroClix you WILL have to learn to live with them.

Yes, yes I suppose you're right. Perhaps this game just isn't for me, in a competitive sense. I guess I'll just have to give it up and stick to playing once in a great while with a friend. :speechles

Or you could persevere, secure in the knowledge that, sooner or later, your PC-loving friends will use their last re-roll on your attack...and it'll come up boxcars.

At that point, gloating is not only permitted but damn near required.

... eh, I don't know about that.

Last week I was playing against a kid who had Perplex on every single character of his Scientist team. My Green Lantern Corps team was no joke, but the kid Perplexed his defences up every turn... so I was rolling some unlikely attacks. He played very defensively, which was actually to my benefit, as being the aggressor gave me the opportunity to make more attacks and earlier than he did.

My first successful attack roll was from Abin Sur; the kid made me re-roll it, using up his last theme team re-roll. Ooops - critical hit. That was six clicks to his primary attacker.

The very next turn I made an attack with another Green Lantern (Starro Slave Hal, I think) against his Tomar Re. Another critical hit... the poor kid was nearly in tears. His two strongest characters were now pitiful compared to my as-yet unharmed team.

I didn't regret those lucky rolls*, but I sure didn't feel like gloating either.



* I don't think I needed luck to win that game. Due to my team build and a more aggressive play style, I was making three or four times as many attack rolls as the kid, and my damage values were all pretty good. Statistically, I was going to smack those glass-jawed Scientists sooner or later. But two critical hits in a row definitely sped the game up, in my favour.

I interpret this rule as the characters having some sort of common frame of reference due to their similar background, making it slightly easier for them to work together.

Ding Ding we have a winner.

Now that we have done the math do you think its intresting that in many situations Combat Reflexs is actually worth more then Prob Control.

Outwit would be overpowered if you could use it on your opponent's turn like prob "I'm gonna use hypersonic speed and attack" "No you're not" "Why" "Because Chief can see where you're attack, and I'm outwitting you with these marbles"

As for prob, if you really want to tweak it, how about this? Make it so you can no longer prob a critical hit or critical miss.

And generally, teams with heavy probability control can't do too much on its own, as only a handful of prob characters are any good in a fight. Most of the more popular ones used won't even prob their own attacks because they almost always miss.