Just saying, M-11 is a unique, please check wizkids official gallery ...

http://wizkidsgames.com/heroclix/gallery/

Today we had a tournament, where each one of the players could bring only one hero and generics ( no limited feats ).
The winner was a Veteran Supernova Thor. He won against a M&M Apocalypse, M&M Greenscar, a Crises Superman Chase Earth-2 and my JL Lobo (I got second place btw).
The thing is, what really matters is strategy and luck, with this two you can go far.

I dunno I still get good use out of alot of older figures. I generally don't play theme teams, OR teams that are build to win. I just mesh charactors I like together. I have to say that at the very least charactors from the older sets still work wonders for me. Infinity Challenge Blade is one example that works, Vet Doom from CT, I use Vet Deadpool alot and he works out well. Along with some of the more recent figures, as well. I admit there is a definate power creep but I don't think it makes figures unplayable, as much as it makes you need a bit more thinking out to use them. Heck, my favorite Batman to this day is the Experinced one from Hypertime.

SI Spider-man is 50 points and stacks up quite nicely against M-11. I really don't see what everyone is up in arms about with him. No move and attack powers, no Damage reducers not even a way to avoid damage. No stealth, Wildcard potential, easily tied up. I get he's good for the points, but it's nothing we haven't really seen before. Just another cost effective piece in a time of actually cost-effective pieces. The fomula exists it's just that employees are getting better at manipulating it.

The generics in HoT are not costed well though. Yes, many have interesting and useful powers but most are closer to 35-40pts than 30pts. They're also dangerously close to being 1-shoted by many figs in this set.

Things get even worse if you're using Surtur's SP

EXPENDABLE RESOURCES: At the beginning of your turn, you may KO any number of friendly characters that have both the Asgardian and Monster keywords. For each character KO'd this way, Surtur can use Exploit Weakness and modifies his damage value by +1 until end of turn.

There 2 generics that meet the prereq for sacking:

45pts Rock Troll
33pts Fire Demon

How many of those do you think you could afford to sack before you've given up your entire team?

Totally agree. Just played against him multiple times in different point games, and he's good, but isn't game breaking. You just have to make sure you take him out when you see the Regen.

If you are able to consistently defeat post-Supernova figures with pre-Supernova figures, then that would be evidence against "power creep."

-J

Wondering if I'm the only one who thinks Bi-Beast is really cost effective. He's not an earth shattering figure but I think 11AV, super strength and 4DaV top click (and a 2nd click of 4DaV, super strength, 10AV) is pretty stellar for just 73 points.

It would only be evidence of having more skill, actually.

As somebody who plays a VERY weird format (I don't build my teams, I have them randomly assembled by a program that selects at random from all existing figures), I can safely say that there's really no getting around the fact that the new figures are far, far more powerful than the old figures at the equivalent point costs.

Whether that indicates the absence of a consistent formula, or just the fact that there is a really BAD formula, is irrelevant - I want this problem stopped. I want to be able to enjoy all the figures in the game without having to suffer because I'm not choosing only the newest ones.

Well like what was mentioned earlier the one trend i really liked was how the close combat no to low range figures were priced much better then normally; having volstagg, Ulik, Kurse etc costing in the low 100's helps balance the ridiculous advantage ranged figures have.........in the comics these characters seem too do fine against there ranged counterparts but get shafted in games like heroclix and SWM.

I talked about this since Unleashed. =) Seems like every year and half there is a jump in powers. The Groupings have been

Infinity Challange to Hypertime

Clobbering Time to Critical Mass

Unleashed to Fantastic Forces

Icons to Supernova

Avengers to now

Hammer of Thor still seems to follw the Avengers model it might just be a transition to the new way stats will be. Fantastic Forces and Supernova both had some aspects to the way stats are done with the group after it. I have said it for a long time there needs to be a precident for stats. Yet they still don't do this.

Agreed. I was thinking his dial would be a good stand-in for the old Hercules (whose E clocks in at 67 points). Here's a quick comparison.

ic119 E Hercules
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 0
Points: 67
Keywords: Champions, Deity, Heroes for Hire

8 11 15 4

8 10 15 3

7 10 14 3

7 10 14 3

6 9 13 3

6 9 13 3

6 9 12 2

5 8 11 2

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

ha013 R Bi-Beast
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 0
Points: 73
Keywords: Robot

8 11 17 4

8 10 16 4

7 10 16 3

7 9 16 3

7 9 16 3

6 9 16 3

6 8 15 2

5 8 15 2

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

You lose an extra 10 AV, some late dial Toughness and spend a few more points, but otherwise you're looking good, especially when you consider the new Herc has Plasticity and "Willpower" so those powers aren't out of character. Not sure how to justify the late dial Force Blast though.

Considering how far the game has come since Infinity Challenge, some power creep is bound to rear its head each expansion in games like this. Remember that every set tends to have its winners and losers, but the better sets have more winners than losers and maintain a relative balance of play between the pieces from the same set. I think HOT captures this nicely. It also doesn't hurt to make the first set to come out in the last entire year full of competitive pieces.

Here's my take:

*Hammer of Thor is mostly comprised of Asgardians and their foes. As has been said, if any Marvel set deserves a little powerin' up, it's this one.

*Hammer of Thor has lots of competitive bricks. I say, it's about time characters without ranged attacks or hypersonic speed get better treatment. This only helps bring balance to the overall game by giving players more strategic options. I wish all bricks from the beginning of the game until now were priced as competitively.

*Hammer of Thor finally gives us AWESOME and more competitive generic/boss game bonuses, something that should have been in the game since the beginning.

*Hammer of Thor gives us high-costed stand-alones that are priced a bit better for taking on similiar point challengers of multiple clix teams. The Thor/Loki duo are what I think a lot of us wish World's Finest had been more like.

*Hammer of Thor is more fun and interesting because of things like Special Powers, Traits, and dial creativity. Some are definitely crazy good, but a lot are simply a bit better than standard powers. (Without these newer mechanics mostly unique to heroclix, you could just make up stats for the tons of DnD minis out there, or just use some old Mage Knight for Asgardians.) Standard powers and the stat/power combo potential still usually rule the roost in this set for basic play, and the use of basic support powers are still underestimated throughout the game in general. The good stuff in HOT does not replace the good stuff from before. It just provides more options for more competitive thematic play.

*Hammer of Thor stats start good, but that's not all that unusual. The cool thing is that a lot of them stay good or even go up throughout the dial. In my opinion, this makes for more interesting games and more worth for the individual clix. Stat decline and vanilla end dials are two of the most frustrating things about the early sets. Anything that helps prevent first strike "game-over man" play is a healthy thing.

*Hammer of Thor, while heavily built around the Marvel Thor mythos, can not be a stand-alone success and it isn't trying to be. It sure looks to me like it was specifically designed to cater to the loyal fans of the game, fans that have been calling a long time for the things it now delivers on both in character design and clix capability. While not everyone is a fan of Thor, everyone who is a fan of Thor is getting what feels like their very own set, even with the inclusion of other teams and characters. I'm not thrilled about the Thor stuff, but there are some great things in this set I do want, and I'll collect the other stuff along the way. I wish more of the older sets had been so well designed around a central theme. Its a great way to introduce players and the general public to Marvel's take on Asgardian lore, not to mention great marketing for Marvel Comics.

I'm no fan of outlandish powercreep, but as has been pointed out, some powercreep is bound to occur, especially as the varying game designers attempt to better capture the proper representation of the character in question for the point in the game it was created. In Infinity Challenge, Hypertime, and several sets thereafter, there was a steady (and I'd argue boring) progression of the decline of stats, dials that boasted a lack of powers (and often lost the ones they had after a few clicks) and not a whole lot of game mechanics or "add-ons" to give gameplay and characters more options. Fast forward to this point in the game and you've got feats, traits, special powers, more standard powers, more "types" of pieces, more dial creativity, etc. , but the simplicity of the basic "superhero chess" gameplay remains. I'm glad HOT didn't come out back then instead of now. In my opinion, the gameplay and character design of today has finally caught up to the original idea Heroclix presented in creating a fun, fast-paced comic book themed tabletop game using superhero and villain game pieces that actually kind of capture the characters and their teamwork & battles.

I don't think we should dislike what HOT is bringing to our gaming tables. If anything, I think we are finally getting the game and clix options I wish they had figured out for Infinity Challenge.

Projection with Pankration.

Bad Breath.....just think if both mouths yelled at you. =)

I definitely think that 5-10 points are missing from the point costs of a lot of this set's figures. At such high point values, I don't think that discount serves any purpose except as an obvious profit-grabbing sale on Charge and Running Shot, to sell boosters.

But as always there isn't just one single problem that we're seeing here - there's a lot of different factors at play. I don't blame everything on point creep, I just know that the evidence is more than enough to convince me that it is there. What are these other factors? (Realmsers who have been here a few years can skip down, I'm gonna cover a lot of basics here.)

1. The game has changed to revolve around move+attack powers (the most undercosted powers in the game, compared to how they improve your chances of getting the first shot, maximizing the damage your actions cause, and ultimately winning the game). I think figures without move+attack powers are now being given a discount (like M-11) and/or given powers to avoid push damage. I am very, very glad that few HoT figs were given the ultimate Heroclix power of move, attack, and prevent counter-attack - powers like HSS or Out of the Shadows.

2. Damage reducing powers are a lot cheaper (Peoples' Exhibit #1: Balder, Thing and Rampaging Hulk) which makes sense because there's so much more Outwit, Perplex, PB and Armor Piercing in the game now. But still those cheap clicks of INV and IMP have altered the game so much that I'd estimate about 60% of the old REV-style figures, the ones with Damage Values of 1s and 2s, have been cut off at the knees in terms of competitiveness.

On the other hand, the point costs for such pieces might be slightly more accurate than at first glance. We see a dial like Balder or Volstagg's and think, "great cheap brick" - sure, but all the new ranged Psychic Blast pieces out there mean Balder's less effective, which means he isn't as strong as you think, which means he probably closer to that 130 than we might think. (But poor old IC Thanos, who's paying 185 for damage reducers and not much else, couldn't get that "It's 2009, Psychic Blast Is Everywhere" discount, could he?)

3. The backlash against Ranged Combat dominance is still going on. The Warriors Three could have been as impotent as the Wrecking Crew, but they aren't. This set has some of the cheapest bricks I've ever seen. Charge is everywhere, even on generics, and now that we have Gee from Secret Invasion and his cheap TK, it means that CCE has become a fairly dangerous power...

4. The JonL days of diminishing stats at the end of the dial are looong gone. Everybody gets a bump in HoT, it seems. They are very different compared to the short dial, declining stats on figures from IC through Indy... Looking back to those sets, it's essentially a different game altogether. Most important are the changes to the dials and movement rules, but the change to Support was also a big deal. So we've gone through our Heroclix 2.0. Problem is, the company was too scared to make it official, and we're still trying to use those old pieces in a game the dials were not designed for and certainly their points weren't calculated with NAAT, FCCF, etc, in mind. My point is this: Heroclix 1.0 points are not the same as Heroclix 2.0 point costs. 2.0 points get you more bang for your buck, no question.

(Those of you who use old pieces and still win, good for you. But your good game skills don't prove any points about fair comparisons).

I really want to emphasize that there's a difference between power creep and point creep. A lot of messages here are arguing about one and not the other. Power creep is when figures are getting more powerful and their dials more efficiently tuned to specialization and damage dealing. Their point costs are also going up. It's fine with me, I like it (I play 500, 700, 1000 point games mostly, and these are the pieces I want for those games). I don't want a set filled with 30 point Rookie Elektras or 11 point SHIELD Agents.

I also think the game designers realize that multi-purpose figures (like IC Dr. Strange, or 200 pt figures with pit crew powers like Barrier or Support) always get slaughtered by single-task killing machines like R Shazam or V Hawkeye. So power creep, increasing efficiency, specialization, call it whatever, that's fine. It's there, and we can all see it. Captain America isn't 41 points anymore, Hawkeye isn't 29 (with an 8AV), Nick Fury isn't 62.

But point creep is different. It means that 130 points is worth more than it used to. 130 points in Hammer of Thor buys you a lot more defense, damage reduction, high stats, and move+attack powers than it used to. Compare Balder to V Ultimate Colossus, R Doomsday, even V Clooberin' Time Thing, once voted the best piece in Heroclix.

(Oh yeah, this set also proves that 90% of the time, team abilities were useless point anchors around the necks of many figures that were never going to need them. ULT U Hulk, for Pete's sake. In Hammer of Thor, no affiliation just makes you a leaner killing machine.)

Point creep means that a 70 point HC2.0 figure can get AVs of 10 and 11, and a Damage Value of 3 and RCE right on their first click. (Winter Soldier won me a few tournaments in 2007.) 70 points buys you more than it used to, so why are those old figures still going for 70 points? They've depreciated a lot in just a few years. In Infinity Challenge, 70 points bought you two clicks of 9AV, a 15DV that dropped to 11, and some Charge and BCF. Is LE Wolverine still worth 70? Will his 8-7-6 AV hit anybody anymore? Nobody's defense drops to 13 in the newest set.

Point creep is the real pain for me, because it knocks all my old figures down a peg, and breaks the central core idea of the game, the promise the game authors are making to us: in general, similar point value figures will provide similar levels of effectiveness, when they fit the strategy you're devising. But this promise is broken for retired figures: my old figures are getting worse for their points, and there's nothing I can do about it!

This kind of creeping may not be intentional, it might just be the natural evolution of the game. I hate obsolescence in my games, but I'm not looking for someone to complain to. I'm not assigning blame here, I'm just spreading awareness and creating house rules for myself so I can still have fun with my V Controller (by making him only cost 57 points in my home games) and my U Samandahl Rey (109 points, but wildcards can't borrow his TA).

That's the solution I'm using, and it may or may not be right for you. I have edited the printed point cost on hundreds of old dials (and gotten approval and co-operation from my neighbourhood players), because I know that either rule and strategy changes have completely nerfed these pieces, or (assuming for a half-second that there exists anything even remotely resembling a universal point formula, which I don't) newer dials are so much more carefully and efficiently optimized with longer lives and higher overall stats... so in the end that old piece is worth only a fraction of what was once calculated. When I play Rookie Beetle, he only costs 21 points to fit on my Sinister Seven team. When my buddy plays Mojo, it's only 71 points for him. Who is going to argue that Mojo is worth his original cost? It's a classic X-Men villain character, but a terrible Heroclix dial. If you don't give him a discount, he's just going to gather dust.

We all enjoy cheap new figures that do a lot for us for little points, but I think we should realize that there's a cost to it: your Swamp Things, your Brood Warriors, your Awesome Androids all get a little weaker compared to the hottest newest thing. You might be fine paying that, you might not.