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By the "separate sentence argument," You could attack, make the figure friendly to your force, and then never use the free action. He would never return to the opposing player, since he only returns after the free action is taken!
AGREED!! We have broken the Mind Control!! I was really just using it as an counter to the argument that BTI worked because RS was worded in one sentence and that BTI was broken down.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
Fin. stupid limit on letters
Ahhhhh. The tool of parent's everywhere to defy logical arguments..."Because I said so." Hahaha
By the "separate sentence argument," You could attack, make the figure friendly to your force, and then never use the free action. He would never return to the opposing player, since he only returns after the free action is taken!
Wrong, because in order to resolve the Mind Control you need to resolve the FREE action granted by Mind Control. If you don't use the FREE action, then MC is not resolved, and you cannot continue to another action. In which case you'd be stalling, and could be DQ'd by the judge.
Trade to Canada. We're friendly, and we love Beavers..........
Because MC grants the actions, they happen immediately because they are a part of the larger action. BtI is an action and then it is over. It doesn't grant anything, but it allows something to occur that would ordinarily be illegal.
Actually, it does not give an action any more than Boom Tube Invasion does. "Each target hit may be assigned one action as a free action, immediately after which the target becomes an opposing character again." It "may" be given an action as a free action. It allows an action that would normally be illegal, just like BTI. So wouldn't the allowed action from BTI work under the same rules as the action you are allowed to take (and is normally illegal) with MC or RS?
I'm afraid that doesn't clear it up for me. Why would it being a separate sentence that says you may do something change what it is allowing. Either power would be allowing an action. Neither power specifies when it is taken. (I am not referring to Charge since it does specifically say when the action is taken by saying "then." Neither power says the power is giving an action, so by the letter of the law nether power is covered under page 7. Both say they are allowing an action when an action would not have been legal. Running shot says "...and it may be given a ranged combat action as a free action." Is it because the power is being allowed to another character?
Again, I am not trying to be difficult. I am really trying to understand. If I had not seen a bunch of folks talking about how it allows the attack to be taken later here on the forums, my first assumption would be that it would be treated like any other power that says "may" take an action, but it is being treated differently. I get what some folks are saying here that it allows an action that was not normally legal to be legally taken, but isn't that true of all those powers?
Well, as I said, I wasn't really certain whether the difference in structure meant anything. And I still am not sure.
Without retyping what WIT, Id, Dragon, and others have said...
They are correct for the reasons given.
There is no action being granted by Darkseid's power. It is simply a removal of the restriction of being unable to be given a non-free action after being carried.
Wrong, because in order to resolve the Mind Control you need to resolve the FREE action granted by Mind Control. If you don't use the FREE action, then MC is not resolved, and you cannot continue to another action. In which case you'd be stalling, and could be DQ'd by the judge.
Then, wouldn't you have to resolve the action taken with BTI and take the action allowed by BTI in order to resolve BTI?
Matt your argument isn't logical. If you want the parent reference then the two of your basically sticking your fingers in your ears chanting "I don't hear you!" over and over again
As for your Mind Control argument please show me in the power where it says the free action can be given during this turn as Boom Tube Invasion states?
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by jonidschultz
Dragon is correct. Dragon is always correct. Never argue with a Dragon.
I'll try saying one more thing to see if it makes sense.
A Character tba has been carried via the Carry Ability cannot be given Non-Free Actions.
What Darkseid's ability does is allow this condition to be dropped.
When you would give a character a Non-Free Action you would check. Were they carried? Yes, action cannot be given, but wait Darkseid's power allows a character under certain circumstances to break this rule. Period.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
Then, wouldn't you have to resolve the action taken with BTI and take the action allowed by BTI in order to resolve BTI?
No because BTI isn't allowing you to take an action inside another action like Charge, Running Shot and Mind Control is. It's allowing you to take an action after BTI is resolved.
Trade to Canada. We're friendly, and we love Beavers..........
Actually, it does not give an action any more than Boom Tube Invasion does. "Each target hit may be assigned one action as a free action, immediately after which the target becomes an opposing character again." It "may" be given an action as a free action. It allows an action that would normally be illegal, just like BTI. So wouldn't the allowed action from BTI work under the same rules as the action you are allowed to take (and is normally illegal) with MC or RS?
You must take that action (or choose not to, but then you've wasted your action) BEFORE you can move on. That granted free action is as much a part of mind control as the initial attack roll is.
BtI does not require you to take the action either, but nothing prevent you from taking it later rather than sooner. Nothing. That character would be taking their own action, at their own behest. It is not a part of BtI. It is a subtle difference, granted, but nowhere near as subtle as a myriad of touchy and controversial rules.
Quote : Originally Posted by DemonRS
Justify to me why this thread is necessary and I'll keep it open..
Quote : Originally Posted by Girathon
It pissed me off all weekend rorschachparadox wasn't dead.
Matt your argument isn't logical. If you want the parent reference then the two of your basically sticking your fingers in your ears chanting "I don't hear you!" over and over again
As for your Mind Control argument please show me in the power where it says the free action can be given during this turn as Boom Tube Invasion states?
You show me yours and I'll show you mine.
BOOM TUBE INVASION: Darkseid can use Phasing/Teleport. When he does, he can use the Carry ability to carry up to 3 characters regardless of their speed symbols. One character of 125 points or less that shares a keyword with Darkseid and was carried by him this turn may be given a non-free action.
Just specifies who can be given the action, not when it may be given.
Quote : Originally Posted by W.I.T
Wrong, because in order to resolve the Mind Control you need to resolve the FREE action granted by Mind Control. If you don't use the FREE action, then MC is not resolved, and you cannot continue to another action. In which case you'd be stalling, and could be DQ'd by the judge.
Mind Control says that you may give the character a free action. So if I Mind Control someone and then decide not to the game breaks?
Mind Control says that you may give the character a free action. So if I Mind Control someone and then decide not to the game breaks?
It doesn't change he fact that you have to resolve the MC action before you do anything else. Whether you choose to give them the FREE action or not is irrelevant.
Trade to Canada. We're friendly, and we love Beavers..........