No one is arguing that range isn't a combat value. It is. The question at hand is whether or not it is being replaced with half of itself. It is not.

If I say x = R / 2, it has no impact on R. If instead I said R = R / 2, that would represent a replacing of R. The AoE in Pulse Wave is an example of the former.

Saying something is equal to half of something else is wholly different than saying you are halving that something else.

The range is not half.

Pulse Wave does not use a character's range. It determines an Area of Effect and then hits everyone in that Area of Effect. It just so happens that the Area of Effect in this instance is based on a character's range.

There are several powers that reference combat values but do not lead to replacement or modified values. One of them was already brought up, Mjolnir's Song.

It's not halving it. It's imposing a maximum being equal to half. Abilities that half a value specifically say that. See my earlier comparison to Charge. Also see HSS which specifically say it's halving the range value for this attack.

I haven't mathed in a while, but the only way R=R/2 is valid is if R = 0. With any other value, it would be untrue, because math.
Anyway, your second example would be better served as A=R/2, because you are calculating an Area of Effect, not a Range. But to calculate the Area of Effect, you are using "half the character's range". I disagree with an opinion that taking half of a combat value is not considered halving that combat value, but I'll run with it for the moment.

If you would indulge me, could you outline the order in which Nerkkod would determine his Area of Effect for Pulse Wave (while in a square of Water Terrain). I still feel like there is a step in there that is unsupported by the Rules as they currently stand.

AoE is determined by taking half of a Combat Value. The halving of a Combat Value is defined as a Replacement.

When a character’s combat value is reduced by half or doubled, those are also replacement values.

Pulse Wave: the area of effect for this attack is half the character’s range.
Pulse Wave: Area of Effect = half character's range
PW:AoE = Half (replacement) Character's Range (combat value)

I'm still not seeing it. Where is the fault in my rules logic?

While he's in water, if something was checking his range, it's replaced with 10 per his trait.

PW then looks at his range and says, "The AoE range has a cap of maximum and minimum equal to half".

PW doesn't say, "Range value for this action is halved" like it does for HSS or Charge/Running Shot.

You seem to be looking at it as one step when in actuality it is two steps.

First step: Check your character's range value. If there are any replacements of modifiers, calculate them accordingly.

Second step: Take the range value you just calculated and then halve it. Now you have the area of effect.

You are not actually using the range value when you make the attack with Pulse Wave. You are making an attack against characters in the Area of Effect. The Area of Effect was determined by what half your range would be. At NO POINT during Pulse Wave are you cutting your range in half. You are determining what half would be and then applying that as an Area of Effect.

To humor you.

fi022 R Nerkkod
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 4
Points: 215
Keywords: Asgardian, Atlantis, Brute, Deity, Ruler, The Worthy

11 11 18 4

10 11 18 4

10 11 17 4

10 10 17 4

10 10 17 4

9 10 17 4

8 9 16 3

7 9 16 3

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

(Special) Hammer of Nerkkod: Nerkkod can use Running Shot. When Nerkkod is KO'd, you may place a FI #S105 Nerkkod's Hammer in an adjacent square and friendly characters modify their relic roll by +1 this game.

(Speed) Revert: Attuma: Give Nerkkod a free action and replace him with a figure named Attuma of equal or less points that's the same number of clicks from its starting line. You may assign FI #S105 Nerkkod's Hammer to that character and it can't be given an action this turn.

(Damage) Undersea: When Nerkkod occupies water terrain, modify his damage value by +1 and his range becomes 10.


And we have Pulse Wave

PULSE WAVE
Give this character a ranged combat action even if it is adjacent to an opposing character; the area of effect for this attack is half the character’s range. Draw lines of fire to all other characters within the area of effect, including at least one opposing character; these lines of fire ignore all game effects except for walls, blocking and elevated terrain. Game effects possessed or used by characters with a line of fire drawn to them are ignored until the action has been resolved. If a line of fire is drawn to more than 1 character, this character’s damage value becomes 1 and is locked. Each character hit is dealt damage.

So we start by giving Nerkkod a ranged combat action. It then says the Area of Effect is half the character's range. So what is Nerkkod's range? Let's calculate it. Replace then modify!

He is in water. So his printed range is 4, however his damage power says that if he occupies water terrain, his range becomes 10. We know this is a replacement value, so we apply it. In this scenario, he has no other replacement values to apply. How about modifiers? Let's say he was perplexed twice. So now he was replaced to a 10 range, and modifies it to a 12.

Now we have determined that Nerkkod has a 12 range. What did Pulse Wave say again? Oh yeah, it said the Area of Effect is half the character's range. Half of 12 is 6, so the Area of Effect is 6 squares. Nerkkod will be Pulse Waving for 6 squares in this example.

Now we draw lines of fire to every character within 6 squares, ignoring everything except blocking and elevated. Now we roll the dice. All characters are dealt damage if it hits.

[I realize I became "that guy" about 10 posts ago, but I really have a problem with the wording on this]

Is there anything printed in the Rulebook or Player's Guide that supports these interpretations as anything more valid than mine?

PW doesn't tell you to half, double, or reduce your value. It's simply indicating the maximum and minimum extent of the range.

I say there is NOTHING printed in the Rulebook and Players Guide that supports your wacky interpretation of the rules in this situation.

EDIT: In what I assume will be an ineffective effort to fix your brain patterns, try thinking of it this way: If someone shows you a dozen donuts and asks, "What is half of the amount of donuts?" The answer is six. The twelve donuts aren't magically replaced with six donuts, it was a simple question. That is what Pulse Wave is doing, asking a question of what is half of the Range combat value.

I already showed how Area of Effect is independent of range. It does not change a character's range. It can merely use it to determine which characters it will effect.

This seems to be my disconnect. Where in the rules does it state that the determination of Area of Effect takes half of the final calculation of the Range Value?

AoE = half of Range Value

Taking the half of any Combat Value fits the definition of Replacement. Why are there two different criteria for halving Range, other than Oranges have stated that it is so?


Arguments on the wording of Charge, Running Shot, and Hypersonic Speed don't hold up well with me.

Charge: halve it's speed value
Running Shot: halve it's speed value
HSS: range value halved

Replacement defined by the Rulebook:
When a character's combat value is reduced by half or doubled, those are also replacement values.
The specific wording of Charge, RS, and HSS all fail to use the specific wording, so why is Pulse Wave being viewed so differently? Is it because the term used is Character's Range instead of Range Value? The Rulebook never states that there is a difference, it specifically states Character's Range is a Combat Value.

Area of Effect is half the character's range.

I think my issue boils down to this:


How can using half of a character's Combat Value for an effect ever be considered anything other than a Replacement?

[I see Mjolnir's Song as a poor power to use as an example, as it is not stating a replacement of a Combat Value, but the limitation of the use of a CV to activate an effect]

IT IS THE SAME EXACT THING AS PULSE WAVE.

Pulse Wave NEVER states a replacement. I could make the same arguments about Mjolnir's song as you are making about Pulse Wave. "It says half so it must be a replacement..."


You need to disconnect Area of Effect from replacements and modifiers. Its none of the above. Area of Effect is independently defined by its own terms. In Energy Explosion, the Area of Effect is defined as squares adjacent to targeted characters. In Pulse Wave, it is defined as whatever half of the character's range value is. But you never actually use the character's range when making the attack.

Understood. My point is that the determination of the AoE is done by halving a Combat Value, and I fail to see how that is not a Replacement.

Now picture those dozen donuts in a line. Your donut eating "range" is normally four. You have a special power that states if you have Coffee, you may replace your donut eating range with 10. You also have a Power, Sugar Wave, that allows you to generate an Area of Consumption that is equal to half your donut range. Donut rules state that anytime Donut Ranges are halved or become, they are Donut Replacements, any you may determine, in any order you wish.
Why would your Area of Consumption "half" to your Donut Range be applied in any fashion independently from your normal 4 Donut or Coffee Fueled 10 Donut Range?

We can deal with sprinkles in a seperate thread.