Sorry, you haven't convinced me, Doc. Especially after saying earlier that you understood the other team abilities for a free action will be reworded to copy the Top Cow one.

Besides, even as the Avengers' TA is worded while it's a movement, yes, it's also a free action as it pointedly doesn't use one of your turn's actions. Look again at the "free action" description in the new glossary. It includes moves (or even combat) as one's powers and/or team abilities dictate.

At the moment the only contradictory element is the placing of a marker in the current Marvel PAC for Avengers TA.

Miraclo: Where in the current PAC does it say the Avengers, Brotherhood or JLA team abilities are free actions?

They are move actions. And, my comment earlier in the thread was made before I checked the Marvel and DC PACs to see if they'd changed. It doesn't look like they have, but the current wording for all three TAs (Brotherhood, Avengers and JLA) all say their ability is a "move action", not a "free action".

And, in the Indy Clix rulebook it states (with the emphasis being mine):

I may not have convinced you, but this is the ruling.

I'm not arguing just to argue. Either I'm right, I'm particularly dense at the moment, or the rules are very poorly and are self-contradictory. Granted, you folks have had them in front of you for weeks and I've only had them for less than an hour, but I'm beginning to wonder if the No Action After Taxiing bugaboo took on supernatural element early on in the discussion and became an article of faith rather than one of law.

Even if one says that all of the Marvel and DC free move action TA's won't be reworded, and makes a huge deal out of the marker being given, at the very least we see that Top Cow TA figs can take a free move action after being carried.

i'm going to take a stab at clearing it up for you docx: a free action being an action that doesnt require an action token, ie outwit, perplex, enhancement.....

free move is still an action...its a move action. the loophole i see you trying to create here miraclo is contrasting....free move with free action. the avengets team ability (and the others like it) have NEVER been FREE ACTIONS, just FREE MOVE. theyve always taken an action, just not counting against your total.

does that help?

This really is a... lawyerly exercise, isn't it? I see your point, though the distinction between a "free action" (again, with reference to what's covered in the glossary definition) and "without taking one of your actions for this turn" is, well, as someone else mentioned, it certainly reminds me of a discussion of the meaning of "is."

The "free action" glossary definition may be the root of the problem. Perhaps it's just set up to accomodate future expansions/revisions of TAs? It includes not only move but combat actions, and even leaves the door open to a single character making multiple actions in a turn if one of his powers or TAs says he can.

Thanks for the attempt, clixhunter, but I'm back to that glossary definition of "free action." It includes (where powers or TAs dictate) move actions, and defines itself initially as "An action that doesn't come from your allotment of actions." That sounds exactly like what I get with an Avengers, JLA, etc. team ability. Getting a move action "...without using one of your actions for the turn."

The only thing I see that swings it in favor of your argument is the assignation of a token, and that doesn't even apply for the Top Cow TA.

(I really hate the tiny editing time window...)


To finish a thought: Getting a move action "...without using one of your actions for the turn" sounds like a fine example of "free."

It's free in that respect, but there are many ways in which a move can be "free", and what they call a "Free Action" is free in more than that respect.

Yes it's clunky, but we love Wizkids anyways.

I don't want to have to look for this later tonght.

Oooookay. So, the definition of "free action" includes references to TA-given move actions --- that don't even yet exist in the game?

Oooookay. So, the definition of "free action" includes references to TA-given move actions --- that don't even yet exist in the game?

Oh, it's beyond "clunky."

Btw, they never give "free action" a proper noun capitalization as "Free Action." If they did that, well, it would be one helluva lot easier to make a case for the NAAT interpretation.

Ha! Does this mean you've posted to it so you're subscribed to it, or that you're hoping they'll crush the life out of me and get me to shut up?

And I'm not trying to be rude, but I am letting you know what the answer was that we, as Judges, have been given about this particular issue.

Please point out to me in either the Indy, Marvel or DC PAC or rulebook where it says the Avenger, Brotherhood or JLA team abilities give a "free move". The only time it is mentioned is in the FAQ

The phrase "free move" does not appear anywhere else, and I attribute its presences in the FAQs to an attempt on the Wizkids staff to be more descriptive, not to their desire to create new game terms (such as my use of the word "taxi" instead of saying "carrying a character").

Believe me when I say that Avengers, Brotherhood, JLA and Top Cow team members (and wildcards mimicing those abilities) will not be able to move after being taxiing.

Neither the rules nor the PAC say their abilities are "free actions" (which is the only thing that can be done by a figure after they are carried.

I understand how aggravating it is, but it helps to understand what is meant by "Free Action" (however you capitalize it, which they should have) when you consider three things:

1) A "Free Action" may take the form of any of the four new basic actions (Power, Move, Ranged, Close)

2) There exist "Free Actions" such as Outwit and Perplex which are not among the four basic actions.

3) Any action desginated as a "Free Action" gives a character no token, and does not count towards the turn action limit.

... the rulebook does contain these ideas, but only in the glossary is it made explicit. TA's such as Top Cow carefully avoid defining themselves as "Free Actions". The obvious problem is that they cannot retroactively alter the wording of the FAQ aboutJLA/Avengers, etc to reflect that a "free move" does not fully qualify as a "Free Action"

Honestly, if you want my opinion, a much more pressing issue exists.

It is the fact that certain Power Actions contain within themselves "close/ranged combat attacks", which causes people to think that these things are "close/ranged combat actions".

The distinction between an "attack" and an "action" is unfortunately fuzzy, leaving people wondering if Charge can be used with Close Combat Expert and such.