TychesCoin wrote:
>>TK gets people to the fight effectively. It lets them engage early, which is what everyone (nearly anyway)liked about taxiing. But without a significant investment in points and actions, its pretty much a one time bonus (exception HSS). It doesn't provide for the constant repositioning which I think the designers felt the problem with taxiing developed.>>

This is a very reasonable statement.

The effects of all of this remains to be seen--I'm yet to actually play with the new rules (although I have a team built around Quasar to play tonight :-), and it is very possible that, in the end, TK will show up occasionally, and not be any more significant than Charge or Running Shot. But then it might be, and when all the winning teams for the next year have TK units in them, I'll be there saying "I told you so..."

:-)

-Peter

bwanabwana wrote:
>>1) Are we talking about winning tournaments? If so, dammit...sucks, etc. yadda yadda.>>

Well, the basic assumption of any discussion of game theory is that the context is competetive play--there is no need to discuss the ins and outs of casual play, 'cause in casual play, people can do whatever they want--they can change rules, play themes, whatever. In competetive play, that is where the rules fall apart if they have flaws. Thus, in discussing the flaws, the basic assumption is offical, competetive play.

>>2) if you play a TK in every game because you're afraid your opponent, the USSR, er, sorry, your opponent is going to bring a TK'er, then it's...the Cold War.>>

Yup. Which is what I see competetive play becoming. The rules were changed, presumably, to fix errors and predictible play. I'm seeing more, very obvious predictible play coming out of the ruels change. Which strikes me as silly.

-Peter

I look at it this way -

The justification we keep hearing is that flying was costed inappropriately for the utility of the taxi-attacker combo. The new rules adjust the game balance.

I suppose the justification for leaving TK as is, is that it is appropriately costed to support the TK/attack-in-the-same-turn combo.

Yay, Go Cosmic Boy! You rock!

Ignatz Mouse wrote:
>>I almost always have an Outwit figure. So that one is easy-- I taxi him into the 10-square range and outwit TK.>>

Very reasonable. Again, TK is *much* less effective than Old Rule taxiing. But it is pretty much all there is now, in terms of move and strike (if you don't come equipped with RS/Charge/HSS). So I expect that it will show up a lot.

At which point, the game becomes one of "who can pull off a good TK first strike"--the game devolves into TK/anti-TK strategies. Which strikes me as silly, when this all could have been avoided by simply placing TKed figures under the same restrictions as taxied figures.

But that's me.

Also, thatks to you (as well as everyone else in this thread) as well for sane, logical discussion. I always love that kinda stuff :-)

-Peter

I think your missing the sacrifice play, the stealth play, and the other ways to first strike (HSS, RS, Charge). TK is important now, but not solely so.

I realize this point has probably been touched on but THIS MAKES TK USEFUL! I'm sorry but heretofore this was a nearly worthless, overcosted power. I don't agree that all winning strats will need a TK'er. Mostly because other powers/rules have changed as well. Most of the viable first strike options have been hobbled along with the taxi change.

I don't think that TK will overwhelm all together - you need TK and E Blizzard.

Bwahahaha! Fools! I've been using TK teams since I started playing this game! LEG UP ON YOU ALL! Bwahahahaha!

</meniachal rant>

Here's my thoughts:

If someone is spending 30 points on jean grey, you can just spend 37 points on invisible girl or 30 points on a bullseye to counterattack the damage.... or you can just get a tk unit yourself or an outwit for the same price.... I think this opens up much more ways of countering a unit....

I can let you tk your unit up, use my outwit and bullseye to take you down more damage that you have done if I plan my units right.

Peter - I played under the new rules 2 nights ago and here is a quick summary of my team and strategy.

E Jean Grey 39
V Beast 80
R Iceman 26
R Cyclops 55

My opponent built an all-stealth team after I showed him my team so Cyclops was pretty worthless.

My strategy consisted of throwing Beast out there and letting him charge someone. Once Beast got hurt, I would throw Iceman out there to go get him and bring him back, use Cyclops as a healing battery; rinse and repeat.

TK plus charge gave me a 15 range. Pretty nice.

The only reason I can see that WK left TK the way it is may be because of the point cost of TK. Whether you believe all the point formula's or not, we can all agree that TK is most definately a more expensive power/ability than flight.

Perhaps WK wanted you to be able to sling and attack, but perhaps they just wanted to make it more costly. TK is estimated to be roughly 9 points on the first click. That's a pretty expensive power.

Now, keep in mind, I am in no way saying that I know this was their intent nor am I even saying that I beleive this to be the justification no matter what... I am merely presenting it as a logical option and food for thought...

I think Incap at range will be worth a lot more also. if you make it so that you can base and then incap you kinda force the opponent to push or clear which gives you a first strike, (at the cost of pushing yourself). the new rules slowed the game down a lot. I think we should be more worried about turtling, than about TK'ing

My post on another thread:

Our local tournament scene will not change regardless of Turtling. This is a little off topic but normally you receive 3 points for a win and 1 for a loss, right? Well, we use what's called an Aggression Bonus. If you destroy more than half of your opponent's force (whether you win or lose) you get an additional round point. Players who win with Aggression get 4 points and players who lose but still manage to kill over half of the opposing force get 2 round points. So, yeah - you can win by Turtling.. you'll win the game, but you won't win the tournament. People tend to change their ways pretty quickly in light of the Aggression Bonus.

Since the people I've played the new rules with have played in my tournaments, we haven't really had any turtling in our test games...

So, I guess the bottom line to this is that I want to contribute to the Turtling arguement but I have very little room to talk since we pretty much killed Turtling as a strategy long ago...

aggression bonus. if I throw 1/2 my force against a turtle and lose them. the Turtle gets the aggression bonus. doesn't seem right to me.

TK will be common because so many people lack immagination. I know this sounds hard, but I have seen the same figures and same strageties used so many times that it gets old. I hope people try branching out a little.

There are other possiblities. I know that I will be dusting off my old Swarm team. It just became a lot more effective!!!!!!

I Can't wait to win another tourny by swarm, it's been awhile!
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Sorry, I missed the other pages so this post is out of order.