Give mechs a move and shoot. Move half your speed value and then shoot. Apply heat for both actions. A running shot gives most mechs an effective 20" to 24" range. It won't change the way Arnis and the other fast mechs are played, but it increases the playability of the slower ones and levels the playing field a bit.

Just my 2 cents.

Snowviper, the whole 'Mech explosion thing is what's known as a Stackpole, named after the BattleTech writer whom first coined the unrealistic exploding fusion engine. Unfortunately, because of the sheer amount of fiction written by Stackpole, it filtered its way into the MechWarrior series of PC games, MechCommander 2, and MechAssault. By implimenting the Stackpole, you're going to end up having 'Mechs purposely charging a mass formation near death and wiping them out with the damage, since a Stackpole is supposed to be a very powerful, albeit small scale, thermonuclear detonation.

I have been watching the debate rage on how to "fix" the charge issue. thus far I believe that the best option presented thus far is the application of the various armor types against DFA and Charge. while this would not completely stop charging (which is not the intent) it would, imo, bring it more inline with the rest of the game system. we would see a natural progression towards ranged combat with mechs and also see a greater variety of mechs being fielded.


in regards to compairing MW:DA versus CBT? I think this is a "no contest" situation. while the games themselves are sharing a common 'world' the game engines themselves are two totally different beasts and should be considered independant of one another. due to this any comparison between the two should be on the fringes and not taken literally as there is no apparent conversion method used between the two...


just some odd thoughts on the matters at hand, make of them what you will.

Actually a fusion engine doesn't really explode. It kinda brings everything in the surrounding area to the same temp as the sun. Cold fusion is a room temp fusion reactor. Battletech does not use cold fusion engines if the reactor loses its magnetic containment either deliberately or via a failure of its safety systems there will be a wide spread flash of heat that will pretty much vaporize anything in the surrounding area. Sorry no thermonuclear explosion.

Charge was a horrible tactic in Cbt thanks to the fact they have a free shot at you before you can even roll to hit with a hth attack. Most of the time the charging unit was crippled or destroyed before it could even roll for a charge.
________
Versailles

Perhaps its time to suggest a "reaction shot" rule that allows the target of a charge to take one ranged shot at the charging mech before the charger rolls for the attack. That would deter a lot of the chargeapes.

Do away with the whole "rear arc" charge deal as well. Any mechwarrior worth anything would immediately pick up a mech that was charging towards him on his sensors (seismic, IR, etc.).

The target of a charge gets an automatic free spin and a free ranged shot on the charger (ignoring the max and min ranges of the weapon system; it is assumed that the shot was fired while the charger was inbound).

That's a poor comparison.

Charging in CBT is nowhere near being the same thing as it is in MW. In MW it is devastating .. crippling many mechs with just one such blow. In CBT a charge certainly did damage, typically on the order of a large laser or PPC hit. But unless the target was pretty much dead to begin with, all but the lightest mechs would not be crippled by a single such hit. Plus, the attacker took damage equal to about half of what he dealt out to the attacker whereas in MW he takes next to nothing. Plus, the defender .. if I remember right .. got a chance at taking a shot at the charger as he came in (I know for certain they got a chance to do so against DFA attacks ... don't quite remember on the charging though). In MW you have to stand there like a deer in the headlights and watch as they run from 2/3 of the way across the board to get to you.

I've only played CBT once myself, but I know several CBT players who've been involved with the game for over a decade. According to them, charging is an extremely infrequent and rarely effective maneuver -- usually an act of desparation. To quote one fellow, who's been playing CBT for 13 years now, "...in all the hundreds of battletech games I've played, I've only seen a successful charge done twice."

I compare these statements to my experiences in MW, where charging is both a commonplace action and one which tends to dominate the game, and it seems obvious to me that something must be wrong. And given the nature of the discussion on these boards and various other forums, it seems apparent that many others feel the same.

What really seems to be at issue is how to solve the charge problem. Some have pointed out that their reluctance to modify the charge rules stems from the fact that charge remains one of the few effective tools to deal with tank drop. This may be a valid point -- I'd suggest that future discussions concerning charge should also consider fixing tank drop at the same time.

My personal sense is that the charge and tankdrop issues are merely symptoms of two linked and fundamental flaws in the MW system. First, there is a time/distance mismatch: when running 'mechs can move further than ranged weapons can shoot, we have a problem. Second, the game's phasing/sequencing is incapable of reflecting battlefield realities: when units can routinely travel across the entire playing field, in full view and in range of enemy weapons, without any chance of their being engaged, we have a problem.

My point is that by compartmentalizing the debate into discrete little bits ('tankdrop' or 'chargemonkeytude') we are actually missing the big picture. What needs to be fixed isn't one specific rule or 'cheese' tactic: the entire MW game system, as a whole, needs to be considered as a whole. Sure, you can tweak a rule here or a rule there, but all that means is that some other problem will emerge. For the system to work effectively it must be considered as a whole, a set of rules which are in careful balance with one another, not as a bunch of stand alone rules that just happen to be a part of the same game.

Please excuse me while I fall over laughing. Only in extreme cases would a charge make it further than even medium ranged weapons. And its hardly a viable strategy unless you're running around with a bunch of 6/1 pilots or something.

On another note, engine explosions are in the MaxTech rules.

Sair

I've seen quite a few successful charges as an early attack by speedy 'Mechs, primarily in level 1 games where terrain plays a major factor in keeping them safe until charge range. Sure, its not always successful, but a properly executed charge means you're unhittable by your enemy trying to shoot you before you hit. Thus, still a viable first-strike option in the games I've played.

And yes, I do know about the Stackpole rules in Maximum Tech.

Thank you for crystallizing exactly what the problems are.

I played CBT for a good 5-6 years and saw none of the 3 charge attempts I witnessed succeed.

It all depends on the luck of who's rolling. *Shrugs* I've seen many charges in CBT succeed, and been hit by most of them.

Hmm....

Highlander Cheese! (preferable pure) :classic:

You know the kind, those who like their armor to be worth something.

Actually, you are close.

To fix charge is relatively simple, and does not require a self destruct.

Charge should be 1.5X the listed speed, not 2X. And it needs to be measured from center to center, not base edge to base edge.

The reasons for this are:
A) you are not merely ramming your mech into another one, but doing primary damage as well (running in, guns blazing - thus the extra heat click). As a ranged attack, it should be measured in the same manner as other ranged attacks.
B) As anyone playing football will tell you, you can run faster in an open field thatn when you are trying to rush forward to tackle someone else who is also moving. Thus, the reduced charge range is a penalty for trying to hit another target.

Mechs with a 9 or less base movement would then need to be within weapons range (9+5 = 14in, 8+4=12, etc) for 1 turn before charging.

Granted, this does not 'fix' Arnis, but it does reduce his charge 'arc' from 24 inches to 18 inches, making screening the chargee a bit easier.

And then, to completely balance it out, give vehicles 1.5X movement for their ram attack as well.