Omeed:

Thanks.

That's what I was wondering by the card scans if the number was different colors due to resource method or card type. I couldn't imagine me thinking of something that you guys didn't.

Still not too sunshine and rainbows on the threshold system but at least you answered the consistency problem for me. That's exactly what I wanted to hear.

Maybe you can answer this question... maybe you can't. But are any of the people who developed the WS CCG involved in the VS system? I'm just wondering from a historical sense (and so that I can stop berating Kergi about it).

Ha ha - don't trust me, eh? =)=)

Seriously, just to answer the last comment you made about the resource pool, Erick - IF they make character/Equipment cards that can be played outside of the build phase (and I wold put my chips down that they've certainly thought about it, if not creatd them) THEN there wouldn't be many such cards, so you wo't see them too often. BUT when you DO see them (if you do;) ) then I still don't think you'll have too much troule keeping track of build. Say it's turn 4 - I would think you'll be able to remember which characters and equipment your opponent played this turn, and if you can't remember exactly howmany points s/he spent, could count em up again =)

-grin- and I have made a critical remark here and there (remember my rant about the promos?;) ) but in general; I just have a REALLY positive feeling abot this game, and any flaws (and as you and others have said, no game is perfect) that the game may have, I feel strongly that they won't deter me from loving this system!!

Cheers!
-Ben =)

Oh, and WELCOME to the Realms, Omeed! :p

Cheers!
-Ben =)

Oh... and another thing I don't like while I'm in my "Ebert & Roeper" mode...

I'm not a fan of face down cards in play. I can't count the number of times people have said... "Oh wait.. I meant to play this card but I forgot because it was face down" (not to mention myself).

And all that checking... "What card was that?" It's almost like No-Limit Hold-Em Poker.

"Let me see... I know I have a Flying Kick somewhere in my Resrouce Row... dang... I tipped my opponent that I have a playable card as a resource... DOH."

I digress... but I think some of you feel me.

And Kergi... at this point... I don't think anything will make you dislike VS. What if UD said that you have to roll a die to figure out what type of attack you get to use like Showdown sports CCGs? Or you always have to flip a coin to determine if your character gets Stunned like Pokemon. Recharge anyone? Hehe.

-grin- then I'd say BRING IT ON, BAY-BEEE! =)

(and in private I'd cry like Nancy Kerrigan =)

One thing that is quite evident in this thread is that there seems to be a misunderstanding as to just how complex YuGiOh is to really play and understand.

The Japanese/American cartoon show that depicts "fuzzy" cute little characters that come to life for the kids, is just a mask that covers a powerful game. There are multiple ways to play this game, from the most basic, to an extremly advanced level...anyone here ever read/translated the JERP?

I find that most CCG players don't grasp the concept of YuGiOh's "power-card" game because of the very point erick pointed out...effects (in most cases) don't have a cost in order to play them (or so it seems). Why? because Magic has conviced them that "cost" is the best way...when that is not neccessarily true. Where a game like Magic or VS. have "costs" YuGiOh has other limitations. BTW, there are actually quite a few effects in YGO that require costs, some quite steep...if not a cost, then a limitation. If you think that cards like Mirror Force or Raigeki is all there is to YuGiOh, then i assure you that you are incorrect.

Also a lot of these "uber-cards" that are being talked about were infact commons in Japan/Asia, but were changed to Super Rares and Ultra Rares for money making purposes by yours truly UDE. It was perfect for them, they already knew what the most powerful cards would be before they even released them. They knew every card the public would want. This game is from scratch, it makes a difference.

I, for one, have always hated the mana/resource mechanic, it is one of the major reasons that Magic never grabbed me. It felt like there was the needless barrier preventing me from actually play game the way i wanted to...always having to stack up on mana, and wait for it...god forbid if it ever got destroyed. Believe it or not, I am one of those people that believes Magic is outdated and should be put to rest.

From what i can see, this game has managed to vastly improve on Magic's "mana" system, by allowing (as far as i can recall) any card to be placed as a resource. That's one of the draws to this game for me, if i have to have "resouces" at least any card in my Hand can be one, instead of being dead in the water as i would be if i had no mana in Magic.

The complexity of the the chaining system in YuGiOh has the potential to be far more complex than that of Magic or any other CCG out there. It is something that is VERY difficult to teach to the average child. You don't believe me, try explaining "Priority" to a 5 yr old.

Face-down cards provide an element of risk and excitement that personified YuGiOh. It cornered the market on it. It makes you second guess every move you make, and tactically plan your opponent's demise without them even knowing it's happening. VS. is borrowing that idea....

Make no mistake, this games' mechanics as far as i can tell are HEAVILY borrowed from YuGiOh thanks to UDE.

Please don't take what i am saying as an argumentative, but rather an opinion and addition to some of the statements i've seen posted in this thread.

If you think i'm wrong that's fine...i just felt something should be said, believe me more could be said too.

I will definately buy this game, because i love comics.

`{nova}

I see your point but I heartily disagree =)

The biggest problem with YGO is that there's absolutely NO balance in the game. The common cards are 99.9% useless and you have to go out and spend hundreds of dollars to get cards that can even compete with people who have solid decks. FACT: you CANNOT win YGO tourneys using a deck without super- and ultra-rares.

As well, being able to play the most powerful spells in the game on the first turn is, IMO, a ridiculous mechanic.

And to top it off, there is no room to grow in YGO. The mechanics are rock-solid with little or no space to alter or create new mechanics to change and refresh the system.

-shrug- I'm glad that you find complexity in YGO, but to me it's a straightforward game with little strategy and zero tactics involved. I enjoy playing it, but I won't spend money on it - that would be a futile endeavour, because the costs would be WAY to high if I want any sort of strong, competitive deck.

Cheers!
-Ben =)

While this debate could go on for hours, and i'm sure i could find many who agree with me (or you for that matter).

I do see your point as well, there is more structure to the turn sequence in YuGiOh than in game such as magic.

I just want to make sure you see this point i typed, just for your understanding, just incase you didn't know.

Just because UDE turned it into a pure money maker doesn't mean that Konami didn't intend to have some variation. In fact a lot of people who play YuGiOh specifically buy Japanese cards because of the cost. You can build a $500+ for 50 bucks.

As for being able to play the most powerful effects in the first turn, that may be true, but having the ability and making the "right" play are two different things.

VS. will be the same, the main form of Damage will be to attack...sound pretty straight forward to me.

`{nova}

I know we can debate about this forever but I believe that you are in the minority Nova. Many YGO playes are now "graduating" to Magic for many of the reasons Kergi mentioned.

One other thing I notice that hampers YGO is the fact that their type system isn't well defined. I believe strong types/teams/sides makes a game more strategic and promotes deck building. Even Pokemon had a strong typing in their system.

I know all about mana-lack which VS addresses nicely (as does Duel Masters), but resource-less is way worse. By not having a build-up strategic cost for playing cards... it turns more into a game of chance... because it's basically whoever has the best draw wins. Resources is a KEY factor to a good CCG... just like war and business... the side that manages their resources best... has the advantage.

And your point about spending $50 to make a $500 deck doesn't really persuade me. In MtG... I know some common/uncommon decks that can beat rare decks. Whereas in YGO (as Kergi stated)... rares rule.

You guys make good points, and i'm perfectly happy with both games. I just find that YuGiOh isn't being given enough credit. I will point out why, and leave it at that because, all the games are fun in the end.

One thing to point out here...if this was true, then why is YuGiOh the at least the second most popular game in history to date? There must be something to it...and no it's not the kids, there are many adults that play yugioh (ironically, the majority i've talked to, were Magic players..lol).

While for the most part, i tend to agree that most Decks are theme-less. However, all of the monsters in YuGiOh are "theme" based. The reason most decks are for the most part theme-less is due to the broad nature of the themes. In order to build a good Zombie Deck you'd have to actually trace all the cards neccessary over many different sets. This take time to release. As time has gone on, we are seeing a lot more theme decks emerging, because all the cards neccessary are there.

The average "set" in Japan consisted of 50 or so cards, UDE uppt it by combining them to make 100 or so. VS. will be over 200, one set of VS. is like 2 sets of YuGiOh (UDE), and 4 sets of YuGiOh (Konami). This is intended no doubt to provide the neccessary cards to build proper theme Decks.

I could build a Fiend, Zombie, Warrior or Machine Deck that could beat any Deck.

Some interesting points of fact:

- The most powerful Magics are commons or rare -> Monster Reborn, Dark Hole, Pot of Greed, Change of Heart
- The most powerful Trap is common -> Waboku
- Some of the most versatile and staple monsters are common -> Witch, Sangan.

It's actually a lot easier than you think to build a cheap Deck. One that can win too.

erick, just to make sure, my attempt was not to persuade you, but to point out that the real reason YuGiOh is so "bashed" and some players are turned off, is not so much because of the game itself, but because of the way UDE treated it's customers by sucking their wallets needlessly dry. They alienated there core customer, kids. That's coming from an avid player/judge who's on the "inside".

Also the ruling situation has been a horrible mess for a long time (it's getting better though).

Although my opinion is biased in this arguement, I honestly just figured if you were going to talk about YGO, it might was well be with the facts. I saw a lot of perception here, and just felt i should say something.

With that said (i've ranted quite enough!)...lets look forward to an "evolved" VS. System. That has the advantage of learning from all others before it...:)

`{nova}

... the threshold cost idea. It will allow some sick speed for swarm decks, it will allow for surprises from the resource row. My question: if I flip a location or ongoing plot twist, does it stay in the resource row and continue to give me one mana?

yes it does, althought effects for plot twists may happen only once, once it is resolved, the card stays in your resource pool and gives you "mana"

Nova:

You have some very good points and I hope I didn't mean to imply YGO is a bad game. There are just certain mechanics I don't agree with (another one being the "rewind" mechanic... games should never have to do that... we do that enough on our own... hehe).

But to answer your question about popularity... being an owner of 3 stores in the last 10 years, I can tell you that it has nothing to do with the resource system. Back in the early 90's, POGs was THE most popular game... but the game was HORRIBLE. And remember... before YGO there was Pokemon (and contrary to popular belief... adults did play that game too). It's all about marketing and trendiness. Popular show, high "value" cards, easy to learn game, lots of kids wanting it -- all that pretty much helps.

I also know a lot of MtG players who play YGO... but if you ask them which game they like better... 9 out of 10 will say MtG. Maybe here in the US it's different... but if you trend sales right now... YGO is on the downslide (I've actually done the market analysis on this). It peaked last summer and will stick around for some time (just like Pokemon), but VS and Duel Masters is going to take a big bite of its consumer base.

And YGO is a fun game for casual play - I quite enjoy it. BUT I prefer a more complex game for competition.

And nova, I do know about the Japanese distribution system - but I don't excuse Konami as they allowed UD to create the money monsted that American YGO has become.

&& Since Japanese cards are illegal in North American play, having dozens of powereful Japanese commons won't help me win those tourneys =)

I honestly think that the Magic rare system (which VS uses) is the best for satisfying collectors and players alike...

Cheers!
-Ben =)

... is best for Sealed and Draft formats.

My question is this, in terms of the other games...

At Origins, how many players will be playing Marvel VS... considering it will be less that 4 months old?