Ok, i have to apologize up front. While I am an avid VS fan and play every week with mates at our local comic shop, I am first and foremost, a lawyer. I have a JD, a Masters in International law and am currently working on my PhD in law. So all of that basically compels me to just offer up (for factual reference only) some legal principles.

It is, in fact, possible to own an idea. This concept is called intellectual property and revolves around such tools as the patent! Basically, this is a trillion dollar a year issue - for example, look at Microsoft being willing to pay millions in fines to the European Union while they fight to hold onto the source code of their software.

It's important to realize though that the legal aspect of this revolves around not who came up with the idea first, but who got to the patent office first. History is full of folks who tweaked something just enough to make it unique and then went and made a fortune off of it because the guy who originally had the brainstorm had his head so high in the clouds that he forgot to mail his patent applcation! Courts tend to get involved when ideas overlap and there's monetary conflict. So, for example, NTP is currently suing Blackberry/RIM (JURIST story - i write for JURIST, but other news sites have the some coverage) claiming that the technology used to power Blackberry wireless is originally NTPs. If they win, everyone that owns a Blackberry (estimated in the several million users) will suddenly be without service - all because of a patent.

Ok, sorry, like i said, had to get the legal mumbo jumbo out of my system. To apply this to VS, i would have to say that while there can be money at stake - obviously from the pro circuit prize winners out there! - the uniqueness of the idea is less relevant. How many times have you seen the top 8 decklists and there were two or three deck types that differed by one or two cards? At the end of the day, having the really cool idea for a great deck will only get you so far. Skill and luck are still key elements. If you play a deck that needs Alfred and you don't draw him or a card that will let you go get him until turn 7, you're probably screwed no matter where you got your idea from. Similarly, if you play avengers reservist and draw every card on the curve and all your PTs and locations just when you need them, well, doesn't matter what you're opponent is playing, it's your lucky day!
I can see individual pride and a desire for due recognition being important, and i think it's important for pro circuit winners to properly credit their decks if they didn't come up with the idea on their own, but when we're all in a game where switching four of one card for four of a different card can take a deck from tier 1.5 to a money winner, originality is a tough concept to argue.

just my two cents,
dwes

so, could a player patent a deck?
could a decklist become intellectual property?
could someone sue someone for using their decklist to win a $10k?

Except for being a lawyer in the first place, you should not apologize. Your two cents was worth at least a dollar. (Is there such a thing as a "good" lawyer, or are they all scarred... like us Americans with our president?)

Great analysis, from a very important viewpoint. Thanks.

....i'd better start patenting every Avgengers Reservist deck permutation; they might be worth money!

No you cannot, UDE holds the right to every card.

If you can, what's to stop someone from copywriting every single 60-card iteration of cards? And why not every possible iteration of cards from 60-70, so that people can't just play 61 to avoid paying you money?

Would it be possible for someone to copyright every 30-40 card combination of cards from the JLA and X-Men set to destroy sealed and draft in the next 3 months (for this PC AND the next one)?

it must cost something to get a patent.... who's got that kind of money up front, even if it was only a dollar?

which isn't to say that it wouldn't be a problem.... because, it seems more than a little rediculous to patent a deck...
(which, oddly enough, makes it somehow more probable that it's possible to do so)

Patents are expensive, and risky. Someone else might already have something close enough to get yours denied... and you don't get your money back.

Copyrights are only 30 bucks, for as many words as you can stuff in an envelope.

Durr...Bush is stupid...uh, durr.

It's actually quite doubtful, under US law, patents are mainly for inventions that are manufactured or produced - oddly enough there are plant patents for 'inventing' a new way to grow something! how strange!

The closest that you might be able to do in VS would be a copyright. Accroding to the US Patent and Trademark Office, a copyright involves "“original works of authorship” including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works, both published and unpublished." Their explanation probably explains best why you couldn't copyright a decklist.

"The copyright protects the form of expression rather than the subject matter of the writing. For example, a description of a machine could be copyrighted, but this would only prevent others from copying the description; it would not prevent others from writing a description of their own or from making and using the machine."

Basically, the copyright in VS is held by UDE and they copyright the card. A decklist is a use of copyrighted material done by permission from the holder (since UDE obviously wants you to build decks!) and any individual wouldn't be able to claim that their version of 60 cards is unique from another's version since all individuals have access to the same information. There are no secrets to help you build your deck (at least in information that other players don't have) and you would never be able to prove in court that the person you claim copied your deck didn't do so just through random chance or similar thought processes.

Finally, i'm not sure about this, having never played VS professionally, but I'm willing to bet that as part of competing in a VS tournament, you relinquish the right to sue opponents based on UDE's materials (the cards and the concepts on them) even though you own the materials.

Hope that helps,
dwes

ps: should admit up front that I am a US lawyer, my icon says Britain b/c that's where I'm studying to get my PhD.

Obv indeed, but we somehow let him get into office. Twice.

OMG, you are going to hell for sure. Twice.

Since the Prof brought up Simpsons....

Adult Swim's bumps inbetween shows sometimes show viewer's email or forum posts. One was from a person who didn't like Family Guy, because (among other things) it "stole too much from The Simpsons."

Adult Swim's responce was, "Even The Simpsons steals from The Simpsons."


Which I think it a point that Stu would like, and that I hold myself as a sketch comedy writer. Even if the basic idea is the same, there are practically an infinite number of ways you can go with a simple concept.

Of course, extremely specific ideas can be stolen. Such as a decklist (keeping on topic)

what's the difference?

not that i have anything worry about (pfft! who wins MONEY at a PC?), but i think it could be a little scary to think that the deck you're about to register might cost you more than just your entry fee....

EDIT: argh! i need to learn how to type faster!

see above

This thread is hauling ass so fast that we are stumbling over each other. I love it.

Our lawyer friend in England explained it two posts ago!

(kairos, you're right. I love it. But you shouldn't quit your day job.)