Pramble: I'm not sure how I'd rule on that yet, but I'm trying to submit something constructive anyway.

I think the crux of this argument falls to the opposing statments in the Pac and the rulebook.

Summarized:
PC= L/C can attack anyone at any elevation or flight mode if adjacent
Rulebook= Soaring characters cannot affect any characters that are not also soaring.

So which is the High card and which is the trump?

Likely we'd have to take precedent for example.
I don't know the answers to all of these questions, but the answers can be used to induce (that's right INductive reasoning) the solution here.

At any rate: here are some other examples where the "soaring characters cannot affect.." might come in direct conflict with the PAC. If we look at how these questions have been ruled, we might gain insight as to the likely ruling of the L/C Issue.

Can a soaring Character:
Use RCE on a non soaring Character?
Use CCE on a non-soaring character?
Use Outwit on a non-soaring character?
Use Perplex on a non-soaring character?
Use Probability Control on a non-soaring character?

All of these powers simply state that the fig can choose a target or affect a fig within ten of itself. (I know the answers to the RCE and CCE, but I don't on the others)

The complicationg factor being that the L/C specifically mentions that the target can be soaring or grounded.

It may just boil down to "do the designers want to lock soaring characters out of ALL combat, or did they intend for L/C/ to be the loophole to that rule?"

In the past, characters with L/C AND flight bases had their bases eratta'd away. If they don't intend on errata-ing the base or the power away on this case, I think they'll need to clarify this matter in the faq.

Side note: this combination will still rock. Having a flier that never has to break away= a LOT of mobility on the team.
If nothing els, it would be a gret way to taxi people to and from giant man (men)

My typing == bad
sorry.

Again, from the Universe rulebook, page 12:
"It is important to note that the effects of powers and abilities and team abilities override standard HeroClix rules."

Right but what about all those other powers where Soaring negates their ability to use the power against non-Soaring figures? The PAC didn't override those.

The PAC didn't attempt to override those.

RCE? It requires that you're able to make a legal Ranged Combat attack. Can you do that from a soaring character to a grounded figure? Not based on that power alone, no.

CCE? It requires that you're able to make a legal Close Combat attack. Can you do that from a soaring character to a grouded figure? Not based on that power alone, no.

Outwit, Perplex, and Probability Control all require that you draw line of fire to the target figure. Are you able to legally draw line of fire from a soaring character to a grounded figure? Not simply based on those powers alone, no.

Leap/Climb is completely different. It specifically allows you to make close combat attacks against soaring and non-soaring figures. That power, by itself, is what allows a soaring figure to attack a non-soaring figure.

Can that power be used to allow a soaring character to use Telekinesis against an grounded figure? I would guess no, since it specifically allows close combat attacks, not Power actions.

However, if it allows for Power actions that 'turn into' close combat attacks, then it would allow you to use Telekinesis and Close Combat Expert, and possibly even Quake, and Exploit Weakness (since those are Close Combat actions that 'turn into' close combat attacks).

How does Soaring prevent you from drawing lines of fire? Is that just something I missed somewhere? I thought the only reason you couldn't use those powers is that they would be affecting grounded figures, not that you couldn't draw line of fire.

Two ways of saying the same thing. You can't draw lines of fire to them legally because you can't affect them.

Okay, then you can't make a close combat attack legally because you can't affect them. Not having line of fire is not the same thing as saying you can't affect them.

Yes, you can legally affect them. Why? Because Leap/Climb specifically states that you can make a close combat attack against both soaring and non-soaring characters, regardless of their elevation.

The power says that you can attack both soaring and non-soaring figures.
The rulebook says you can't do it.
The powers and abilities override the rulebook.

But those are actually two different things.

Two actions (not in the game sense, but in the real wold sense) which produce the same result are not necessarily equivalent actions.

Stealth also prevents line of sight. By the same reasoning you just used, you could proclaim that all non-adjacent opponents to a stealthed figure are considered to be soaring.

(maybe not, but you see the point)

The rulebook just says "cannot affect" not cannot draw line of fire.

And it's that "Cannot effect" that keeps a soaring character from outwitting/perplexing/etc, despite that that PAC says "any target in range."

The complicating matter still remains that the PAC of L/C specifically mentions grounded and soaring targets.

Still leaving us in no man's land as to the "which is the trump" question?

While I haven't made up my mind yet, I tend to think that it should be ruled against using L/C to attack out of soaring. It seems to go against the intent of the game to allow a few characters this sort of immunity to retaliation. (tangential thought alert) though it could be argued that Invulnerability makes you immune to retaliation from a lot of characters, but further that outwit can get through Invulnerability... and you can aoutwit soaring as well...

So that takes me back to: I'm not sure.

But I hope at least I was able to add useful info to the thread.

A soaring figure can still draw lof to place a barrier. Although a barrier may not directly affect a character, the actual barrier can affect the game play of that character.

Look at the Knockback rules in the FAQ concerning a non-soaring figure moving into the square that the Soaring figure is in. The Soaring figure STOPS the knocked back figure. This is a direct game play affect to the knockback figure.

No non-soaring figure can occupy the same square as a Soaring figure at the end of any form of movement.

So in an abstract way Soaring figures do affect non-soaring figures.

wes

I've explained in great detail why I don't believe Soaring Leap/Climb allows you to attack a grounded figure on another thread (the Mimic review by Sandra, in fact).

JacinB has already heard all my points, so I quote solely for context of argument - and to show my agreement with megakilroy allow me to just post:

But it does not state that the attacker can be either grounded or soaring.

The rulebook states Soaring figures can only effect other soaring figures.

But since Leap/Climb does not state that you can ignore both the attacker's and defender's elevation you have to default to the rulebook on Soaring.

Flurry allows 2 close combat attacks (it says so).

Willpower ignores pushing damage (it says so).

Leap/Climb allows you to perform a close-combat attack on a target regardless of target's elevation. (it says so).

But Leap/Climb does not say to ignore elevation for the attacker as well. Some people are inferring that since you can attack a figure regardless of its elevation that means you can attack any figure regardless of the attacker's elevation and it's not true.

Leap/Climb says nothing about what happens if you are Soaring. But under Soaring it states Soaring figs can only attack other soaring figures. Thus if a leap/climb figure is in soaring he is unable to attack a grounded figure not because the target is at a different elevation than the attacker. But because the attacker is Soaring and Soaring figures can only effect other soaring figures.

But I welcome an official ruling / FAQ entry on the subject, regardless...

I guess I just see the "Soaring figures cannot affect non-soaring figures" as a blanket statement that is a little more up in the "rules chain" than most stuff. It is obvious that we will just have to agree to disagree, and I won't be surprised no matter which way they rule it.

what about Pulse wave on a tangent.

I forget the ruling.

Soaring is an Ability and we brought it up when the new rules for pusle wave came out.

Since Pulse Wave ignores powers and abilities there was a concern that the half range of pulse wave could ignore the range effects of a Soaring figure.

There was a question that the Soaring ability was 'countered' and thus would fall into the PUlse wave range without having to become halved again.

I think the ruling was that the Ability to Soar was not affected by Pulsewave. Could be wrong. Please confirm this??

So if we know how non-soring pulse wave works....how does a Soaring Pulse Wave attack work?
Does it ignore the non-soaring figures within range?? My guess is yes.
Now the conclusions from this thought may have or have no bearing to this argument....but I put it out there just in case.

wes

Regardless of the target's elevation AND regardless of whether the character is soaring or not.

Right there is your answer. That is what allows you to affect non-soaring characters.
Soaring is not an elevation. Soaring is a flight mode.

Let me repeat myself again (and again, and again, apparently), because you're ignoring parts of the rules that don't fit your purpose.

Leap/Climb allows you to attack a) soaring, and b) non-soaring characters, regardless of elevation.

Regardless of your elevation, regardless of their elevation, it allows you to attack soaring and non-soaring characters. Period.

The rulebook says that soaring characters can only affect other soaring characters. The Leap/Climb entry on the PAC says that you can attack both soaring and non-soaring characters. The rulebook also says that powers and abilities trump the 'base' rules. So, you go with what Leap/Climb allows.

Why is that so difficult for people to understand?