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SM Parasite - Power Drain
GSX Rogue - Power Absorbtion
DC75 Black Alice - Magical Thievery (if used against Mystic Keyword)
These three characters have a Special Power that allows them the possibility of using Support or Regeneration.
Would anyone argue that since there is the possibility that these figures may be able to use Support or Regeneration that they would be eligible to activate the White Lantern effect whenever their Special Power is showing?
Or is is safer to say that, unless any of those characters are currently using Support or Regenerate, that they can't active the effect?
I would say yes.
Going back to the wording of the White Lantern
Quote
Characters within 4 squares of this object that can use Support or Regeneration can't have those powers, or special powers that allow their use, countered.
The bolded part seems to be the key here.
Do those powers allow the use of Regen or Support?
Simple question right? I would say the answer is yes. The power does allow the use of either Support or Regen. It is conditional, but the prerequsite of the conditions for the White Lantern have been met.
If a figure had a power that said "This character can use Impervious, and, on Tues, Wed and Thurs, between the hours of 13:00 and 18:00, they can use Regeneration.", could that power be countered at any other time besides those stated on the power when it could be used?
I think the closest I can get on board with is the word "that" which suggests a power must actually be named. So if Nico's power said give her a free action and she can use, Stealth, Steal Energy, Regeneration, Outwit, Leap Climb, Energy Explosion, Toughness, Battle Fury, etc. she would be allowed to use the lantern. However, a pwer must be named first and than THAT power can be used.
Or a GD can step forward and pull a Magog and make it right.
Then the White Lantern should be worded more like
Quote
Characters within 4 squares of this object that can use Support or Regeneration can't have those powers, or special powers that list them as available for use, countered.
Do those powers allow the use of Regen or Support?
Simple question right? I would say the answer is yes. The power does allow the use of either Support or Regen. It is conditional, but the prerequsite of the conditions for the White Lantern have been met.
If a figure had a power that said "This character can use Impervious, and, on Tues, Wed and Thurs, between the hours of 13:00 and 18:00, they can use Regeneration.", could that power be countered at any other time besides those stated on the power when it could be used?
Yes, it could be countered, because besides those times he is not a character that can use Regeneration.
Quote
ATLANTIC REJUVENATION: If Namor occupies water terrain, he can use Regeneration.
Look at Namor again. He can use Regeneration when in water terrain. If he is not inwater terrain he is not a figure that can use Regeneration.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
It doesn't say "Can use" It says "Allows their use"
To me, it is a fairly big difference
If she Chooses Stealth does it Allow her to use Regeneration or Support as well? No, it only allows her to use Stealth. Until she picks a power it does not allow her to use anything, and when she does it is only that power until the beginningof her next turn.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
In the Namor example, could his power be outwitted if he's out of water?
Yes it could.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
In the Namor example, could his power be outwitted if he's out of water?
Quote : Originally Posted by MisterId
Yes it could.
Just to take it a step further, how far does...
Quote
Characters within 4 squares of this object that can use Support or Regeneration can't have those powers, or special powers that allow their use, countered.
...extend?
You can Outwit Namor's Aquatic Regeneration SP when he is not occupying water terrain, and he is within 4 squares of the White Lantern. On his turn, he is TK'd to a square of water terrain (or a Bucket of Water is TK'd underneath him, or Tempest moseys over, etc) that is still within 4 of the White Lantern.
Is Namor now able to use Regeneration? He has a power allowing it's use, he meets all the conditions of it's use, and under the current circumstances, that power cannot be countered. Does he get Aquatic Regeneration back, as the conditions have changed, and the WL provides a rectroactive protection? Or is Aquatic Regeneration still in it's "not on the dial" limbo?
Does "cannot be countered" mean "an action cannot be taken to counter" or "cannot be in a state of being countered?"
Quote : Originally Posted by DemonRS
Justify to me why this thread is necessary and I'll keep it open..
Quote : Originally Posted by Girathon
It pissed me off all weekend rorschachparadox wasn't dead.
...extend?
You can Outwit Namor's Aquatic Regeneration SP when he is not occupying water terrain, and he is within 4 squares of the White Lantern. On his turn, he is TK'd to a square of water terrain (or a Bucket of Water is TK'd underneath him, or Tempest moseys over, etc) that is still within 4 of the White Lantern.
Is Namor now able to use Regeneration? He has a power allowing it's use, he meets all the conditions of it's use, and under the current circumstances, that power cannot be countered. Does he get Aquatic Regeneration back, as the conditions have changed, and the WL provides a rectroactive protection? Or is Aquatic Regeneration still in it's "not on the dial" limbo?
Does "cannot be countered" mean "an action cannot be taken to counter" or "cannot be in a state of being countered?"
If the power is Countered while he is in clear terrain and then he is moved/placed in water terrain, he does not have the power to grant him Regeneration so there is no power for the White Lantern to protect until the outwits time runs out.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
If the power is Countered while he is in clear terrain and then he is moved/placed in water terrain, he does not have the power to grant him Regeneration so there is no power for the White Lantern to protect until the outwits time runs out.
While I am inclined to agree with this, I feel that there is a good enough reason for this not to be the case.
Consider the case of a figure who has the Power Cosmic/Quintessence TA for part of their dial. If a power on their dial is Outwitted while they do not posses the PC/Q TA, and they then obtain the TA, if they still have that Outwitted power showing on their dial is it still Outwitted?
(You can Outwit High Evolutionary's Toughness on click 2, but when he pushes/gets poisoned/damaged onto click three, is his Toughness still Outwitted? Crisis Kyle Rayner can have his TK outwitted 4 and 5, but a successful Support roll that heals him back to click one will find him in the same situation.)
Is the power of a figure that is legally Outwitted while it can be, still Outwitted when the figure reaches circumstances where it's powers cannot be countered? I don't know if there is a ruling for this, as it only just popped into my head, and I can only think of those two cases where it is relevant (new Super Adaptoid doesn't have overlapping powers), but I cannot help but think that powers would "return" under those circumstances. And I see the WL putting the same conditions on Namor.
EDIT: Another way that the circumstances would come up would be if any old PC/Q figure had their TA countered (Time Trapper, Skrull-ojacket, Dirk Anger, Thwart?) and a power outwitted. Should they get their TA back, either by killing the offending Outwitter or Outwitting his Outwit or however, do they regain powers that were legally Outwitted in the moments they were able to be?
Last edited by rorschachparadox; 11/01/2011 at 21:05..
Reason: Added TA outwit option...
Quote : Originally Posted by DemonRS
Justify to me why this thread is necessary and I'll keep it open..
Quote : Originally Posted by Girathon
It pissed me off all weekend rorschachparadox wasn't dead.
QUINTESSENCE
Characters using the Quintessence team ability do not take pushing damage and their powers cannot be countered. This team ability can’t be used by wild cards
POWER COSMIC
Characters using the Power Cosmic team ability do not take pushing damage and their powers cannot be countered. This team ability can’t be used by wild card
The Team Ability says that their powers cannot be countered, at the time the power is Countered, the team ability did not exist and there for the stipulation not an issue. If a power is countered and then they gain either of these team abilities, the power was already countered and does not exist on the dial for the Team Ability to protect it.
Quote : Originally Posted by Core Rulebook
COUNTER: A game effect that causes another power, ability, or effect to no longer be possessed by a character
P.S. Dirk does not Counter:
Quote : Originally Posted by Dirk's Final Word
Can Dirk counter the Power Cosmic team ability with Insane Leadership?
Dirk doesn't counter anything with Insane Leadership. "Counter" is a very specific game term (typically associated with the Outwit power) and Insane Leadership makes no mention of countering. Instead, opposing characters simply can't use their team abilities. And, yes, that includes team abilities likePower Cosmic.
Quote : Originally Posted by Necromagus
When I came on board as RA I brought with me a mission to meet the intent of a power/ability and a firm distaste for exploits or loopholes that circumvented the intention of a rule. That's where the Rules team comes in.
The ruling has been that if a Power Cosmic character somehow loses their team ability and their powers are countered, when the team ability comes back, the powers are no longer countered.
This came up once in a while when the rules still had optionality and canceling, since you could (in the past, not anymore) Mind Control Thanos and have him cancel his Power Cosmic and then Outwit him.
EDIT: So going from that, Namor's power would be no longer countered if he ended up on water near the White Lantern.