Now this ^, this is constructive!

Sounding like a broken record, I think it's all about how poorly things are written.
"Can use" means that you are "using" that power. But, if an effect activates "when you use" that power, it only triggers when you "are using" the power.
How could that possibly be confusing to anyone?

But, as you stated, assuming that "can" = "must" is incorrect. Almost any blanket statement will be incorrect in this game, because the game is not centered around the rules, but on the exceptions to them.

I was explaining things to a newer player last night. While going over Pulse Wave and powers that cannot be ignored, I started to say that "can't trumps can", but stopped myself. While that is true for some things, there are one or two examples (which I can't recall right now) where "can trumps can't". I ended up with a "usually" caveat, and followed up with "an exception will usually trump a rule".

Slightly off topic, but I find it harder and harder to explain anything beyond the absolute basics of this game to newer players. It's like everything has an exception, now, and trying to help someone understand when a core rule still applies and when specific exceptions are applied becomes very confusing very quickly.

Ok, rant over. Don't say "can = must".

There is really nothing I could add to this, except that I never meant to imply so much that can=must as much that the word is misleading for a number of reasons and should be considered for elimination in the Grand Clix Lexicon if that glorious day ever comes. As we have established in this thread, there is no actual need for it in most powers.

Normally, penetrating damage can't be reduced, but Darkseid's Trait trumps the "can't beats can" rule by stating that penetrating damage can be reduced.

I agree that sometimes the rules can be worded poorly, but people should still not use shorthand rulings to try and explain things to themselves. It probably makes them understand less rather than understand more.

When teaching the game, you can only teach the basics. Everything beyond that must be learned from playing.

When I am teaching a new player I will only use characters without Traits, special powers AND can only have

No other figure is used, until they can full comprehend the game at its core. Then I will slowly introduce them to new elements like Improved Movement (which is actually one of the easiest things for new players to understand in my experience) Indomitable and BASIC special powers (IE ... Can use Stealth and Running Shot).

Actually if memory serves me correctly (sorry I can't look it up), but he had to be issued an errata to actually function properly. As originally worded he could not ignore penetrating damage.

Or am I confusing Darkseid with someone else....

If this is true, then you need to post the link, because I'm not finding anything.

Normally, I feel the same way. But when it's a new player at a WoL tourney, you need to do as much as you can to help them out, even if the conditions are not ideal.

This was the primary discussion that I remember.
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=500038

There's no mention of actual errata in there from the rules people. It's people assuming that there's a rule that says "can't beats can", but there is actually no such rule.

After re-reading all of it, yeah. Nothing ever commented from the then-present Oranges, so it was just a debate on the nature of HC terminology. But I think that was the thread Dragon was referring to.

Nice example.


I understand you not wanting the rules dumbed down, at the same time you must see the need for some kind of simplification.

I would bet any part of my anatomy that you can't answer all rules questions from memory and there are probably also rulings that you are not familiar with and therefor wouldn't even know to seek them out.

This is what Daiorka is taking about and until I can find at least 1 person who can answer all rules questions accurately and completely then his point is stands strong.


Precisely. This only basics thing is nice at home but you can't turn a kid away who happens to wonder in because he didn't learn the basics first. You should encourage them to come for casual play but the game needs to be teachable on more than just a basic level.

You're confusing Darkseid with someone else.
Possibly Dormammu?
this had to get errata because unavoidable damage by defintion cannot be ignored, so the new version is:

GET OUT OF MY MIND! Thanks Vlad. That is exactly what I was thinking and getting myself confused about.

jtallday,

I think what you are trying to say is that WK GD needs better templating. You get no argument from me there.

Even before the days of the Special Powers I recommended that they use a bold font to indicate keywords since even terms like Damage DEALT and Damage TAKEN have two different meanings.

Maybe there would be too many bold words, but they should at the very least get in the habit of color coding the key phrases while they are still in the design stages.

It has been obvious to me for a long time that they arent very good at understanding their own rules; just pull out the old BFC "BACK ALLEY BRAWL"

Back-Alley Brawl
Characters who make close combat attacks using no powers, feats, or team abilities and who are not affected by the powers, feats, or team abilities of any friendly character get +2 to their attack values.

BAB has always been a fantastic example of "we know what you mean, but can you tighten up the terminology so it actually works according to the rules the way it's supposed to without bringing up too many questions?"

Multiple definitions for "use" adds needless confusion. Just implement some other term, like "activate" or "trigger". Something. Anything.