I really thought it was a commonly known function of Entities. When the dial turns, the powers are lost until you choose again when actions resolve. I'm not saying how many judges would or wouldn't know, but it's readily known where I play, even by the less powerful players who don't really use Entities. I was honestly surprised it was a question at all.

Judges misrule sometimes, they're human and make mistakes.

But again, the player in question has two very similar claims on him that he shortclicked, no more than an hour apart. That has to be a consideration in this instance. A player with intent to cheat will generally get away with it at least often enough to make it a viable "tactic" to try and pull a fast one on their opponent as often as they can manage. Most players aren't so paranoid that they constantly watch their opponents' every twitch. That's not a judging problem, that's an integrity problem.

When personnel prove that they don't think integrity is its own reward, punishment becomes a requirement to enforce that integrity. You don't punish, they keep trying to get away with crap they shouldn't pull.

Instead, when players cheat, the victims get the blame for "letting" them. It discourages the cheated from actually speaking out about it, and it encourages more cheating because players know they can get away with it. I said it earlier and it begs repetition, victim blaming is making the problem larger than it needs to be.

The fact of the matter is that I do. Once I actively look at a figure's dial for a few seconds (ten seconds on the Units Section is plenty, most times), I have cliffnotes on it that I can pull from memory and use to my advantage during the game. I can tell you how many clicks it has if it's a standard sized figure (within one or two), roughly what its powers/stats and progressions are, roughly what its starting stats and powers are, and so forth. Some of my local players can attest to this, and the local venue owner played a game with me for a while where he'd pull out a figure from the singles box and ask me for a rundown on it.

I actually rely on my memory to catch errors in the game most of the time. The fact that I didn't have a "record" (best word I have) of Faust's dial on memory, combined with my reliance on that skill conditioning me to not actively scrutinize my opponent, was enough for Shaw to slip one past me. Not that he knew, of course, that I can do that. But Faust is a new enough figure that I didn't take a good enough look to have a record.


Faust is a figure that is monumentally useful on any click. His numbers are good, and his trait can have a serious effect on the game without Faust actually doing anything else. I honestly can't think of many other figures that would be more game-changing to shortclick to keep alive than Faust.

From the card

"POSSESSED: Click the Possessor's dial to the same click number as this character and change it during the game in the same way that this character's dial changes. At the beginning of each of your turns or after this character takes or is healed of damage and actions resolve, you may choose 1 power showing on one Possessor's dial and 1 combat value on one Possessor's dial higher than this character's printed combat value. This character can use that power and modifies that combat value by +1 until your next turn or until it is healed or takes damage. If the Possessor is turned to a KO click, it is removed from the game immediately."

As the judge is not under the same pressure as the player and the ruling is on the card itself, I'd expect 100% to know it.

Seeing as a judge is not under the same restrictions as the players (and can therefore look up every dial in the game), the judge has every dial in the game "memorized" by default.

Both of those are a dramatic change paradigm on judging from what is normal for Heroclix. Then again, this is Top 16 at a large event. Also I come from much more competitive games (physical sports, mtg), so my view largely comes from normal to those rather than Heroclix. For example this is a direct quote from the DCI guidelines (magic):

1. Judges at the Table (Including Finals)

The philosophy for warnings and penalties changes when a judge is present from the start of a match to its finish. When a judge is present at a match from beginning to end, he or she should never issue a warning or penalty for technical issues. A judge should simply ensure that all cards and rules are played properly. This does not include matters of cheating, unsporting conduct, or other non-technical play problems.

It should be noted that Magic judges have to take an exam to even judge on a casual Friday night. That standard is a long way off for Heroclix, but opening the units section on a smart phone to check something out is pretty common from what I've seen even from players between rounds when it doesn't matter.

I'm not going to sit here and accuse any judge of cheating. Particularly when it's a volunteer like virtually every Heroclix judge is. However, I do believe when you have the same problems over and over an adjustment should be made to reduce them. Perfect judging is an unreasonable expectation and will never happen. Saying that a third set of eyes helps (4 judges can cover 8 tables in a top 16 by sitting between them if staffing were an issue), isn't speculation though. As noted in a previous event, that set of eyes doesn't matter if the system prevents the judge from saying anything unless asked (passive judging).

There will always be passive judging in Heroclix and that's the way it should. Oddly enough we were discussing the very subject about the time this took place. It is something I have been thinking about ever since the incident occurred at Nationals.

Judges are not referees, they are judges and make a decision based on rule interpretation. To have a referee it would require a large amount of manpower. Furthermore I don't want to see Heroclix turn into Sunday football where losses then become blamed on the REF. Also expecting a Judge to watch a game without distraction is near impossible. In this event I watched one of the games (the second) intently as did Jason Alvey. Neither of saw this incident and was not aware of it until the next day. That's when Jason told me about it. I actually can recall Faust getting hit for damage but I do not recall any discussion of knockback nor do I recall how much damage occurred. There were too many people trying to talk to me or talking around me at the time. I really, really, really, wished I saw clearly what occurred.

The judging at this event and the event itself were handled perfectly. Problems that occur from any action taking place in these incidents:

1. The incidents were not brought forth to the Judge when they occurred.
2. The first incident was acknowledged by both players after the match was over and both players were informed of the proper rule. It was a misplay.
3. The second incident I will admit is more severe since the player was informed of the correct rule prior to the game. The problem is that both players have different versions of what occurred. No one else saw it and it was not brought to anyone's attention until after the game and in this case after the tournament.

Again there was no error in Judging at this event. Active Judging is not something that will happen and I do not really think that anyone really wants. If they do they really should think more on said subject. Lastly without hardcore proof ROC or the venue cannot take action against a player for allegedly cheating. The incidents have been noted and if anything else down the road occurs with said individual then it would be part of ROC's consideration on any actions to be taken.

I agree with these statements. The judging staff at the event was on the ball, as is the Board with what's presented here.

Great job Lucas on that 7th place out of such a large field!

Howard addressed everything I've had to say.

I have no lack of confidence that the judges are on top of it.

The discussion took place and a decision was made by the best informed people on the subject.

Can't ask for more than that.

Yeh, Lucas is awesome. It was a great moment when he started kicking my butt on the regular. Great guy.

Wait...shady judging at a ROC? No way lol...that's not possible.

I would have been caught out by this cheating myself so thanks for broad casting it.

I do have a question in it though. If after taking damage but befoe knock back, if the opponent figures dial (not the entity) then showed toughness, would he be able to use that to absorb the knock back damage or would it be disallowed because he had already picked a different damage reduction power for the action and the action hasn't resolved yet?

If it's the latter then force blast just became so much better for me

There is nothing to be done now. I get that but what happens when I find something out about the game AFTER the game has ended?!? This is what the Judges failed to even consider. I to agree that the venue was a well organized and judged venue... But my question to you, Howard Brock, is what is the protocol for finding 'short clicking' after a game has ended?? Chalk it up as a 'misplay'? The only thing I keep hearing is how it wasn't caught during the game... This is true... Had I not look thru Felix dial (something I could have done via realms or different apps) this wouldn't be an discussion. But what happens after a game and its found out clix weren't taken as my situation was.

It's the same thing. Time had ended. Figures had been removed from the board. I can not recreate the game state when the attack in question happened.

This was considered. The knockback and possessed power question was asked after the game ended. Justin said he had chosen toughness after the initial damage was taken so he didn't take the knockback damage. I said that was incorrect. This all happened after the game had ended and figues were removed from the board. I can't at that point recreate a turn and have you replay the game from that point. People screw up rules and make mistakes. We are human.
DrEth0s you were the only person in the entire event who failed to fill out and turn in a team sheet before the event started. The judging staff found that out after pairing and seating the other players when you were left without an opponent. It was your first event of this kind and you said you didn't know you were supposed to do that. All other players were paired and seated so I granted you a bye when I could have easily just granted you agame loss. But I realized it was a mistake and wanted to try and give you a good experience. I did the best I could by you with what I was given.
I wish that the event had been perfect and that you didn't feel slighted. It wasn't and you do feel slighted and for that I'm sorry.

Right.... Its simple really guy didn't take his damage to keep his clix from ko... He was projected to have an easy win with the new guy who wasn't suppose to even be there in the 1st place had no one dropped out (as the clixcast put it; yeah! SuRPrisE I can read/listen between the lines too fellas;-) so he tactfully left his character on the board... Had i been a regular would it mattered then? how about any other judges out in clix land... What's the protocol in situations that are similar? I don't want this to overshadow the day it was... Had a great time met some cool clixers... 1st time meta player just wanted to know is this what meta gaming is all about win by ANY means necessary??

Him stating he choose toughness was what u call covering up your lie... During the game damage was understood... After the game he was caught not taking damage and try to bombard the 'newbie' on bs arratas and how it was legal... But I didn't ruin the evening nor am I trying to throw mud at the event, but HE (Shaw) knows he got put out but cheated. I'll see u guys @ the next one..