I don't want Arnis to be banned. This is our favourite sprinter mech and the last thing we want is to force Arnis to remain in storage coz some commanders felt that speed kills.

What we should change is the charge mechanic. It is simply not logical for a mech to charge out of nowwhere and deal tremendous damage in one shoot. To blame and ban Arnis is very unfair to Arnis.

Forgive the length/rant. This is a soft spot. This mechanic always made about as much sense as a VTOL being able to ram and survive (invincible rotor blades anyone?) :)

Anyhoo ... on to the post.

Granted Broman, tank drop would make a resurgence ... but we need to focus on 1 problem at a time. If we tried to tackle all the problems at once we'd never get anywhere. If we make one change .. view the result and test it to make sure it is balanced and then move on to the next problem then maybe sooner or later we might finally end up with a balanced game. Maybe.

Right now Charge does far to much damage, from much too far away, for too little of a downside (risk vs reward).

I played in a campaign last night with some very good players and we all agreed that the first thing we do when we look at a mech to see if we want to field it is we click the figure down 5 clicks to see if it will still be useful. That in itself should signal there's a big problem.

1) The range of charge certainly has to be toned down big time. This business of not being safe anywhere on the board is nuts. Charge is NOT needed to combat turtlers any longer ... that's what arty is for and even with the proposed changes arty will still be effective enough to keep people from turtling in a spot forever. I think Charge should be like DFA in that you can only do it within your mechs listed movement (you still have to give the mech a run order though).

2) You should only be able to charge something if the target is in your front arc. As it is now how are you supposed to build up enough speed and momentum when the target is BEHIND you and you have to do a 270 degree turn and dodge around units and terrain to get there?? I don't think so.

3) Charge simply does too much damage. I'm not certain what would be the best solution to this. I don't think I would like to see a change that armor reduces charge damage because then you will see nothing but armored mechs take to the field leaving the rest to gather dust on the shelf. If we are going to change things I want to see a change that makes as many units as useful as possible ... not a select group. I would say armor still does not effect charge damage. But. If your mech does not have the melee attack type on its dial then the damage your unit does on a charge is your primary damage -2 to a minimum of 1. If you do have the melee attack type then the damage is primary damage -1 to a minimum of 1. This will allow most mechs to deal out more damage to a target by actually SHOOTING the blasted thing instead of playing bumperbots (hmmm ... advanced warfare ... go figure). But charge still gives a mech an option to damage a target with armor in a desparation attack.

4) There is no downside to charge at present. 1 damage and 3 heat? No. Arnis can take as little as ONE heat for a charge and has a repair marker like 5 clicks down in the dial and keeps his stats pretty well. The 'downside' to charge is an utter joke right now. I think instead of taking a mere 1 damage ... the charger should take the defenders primary damage -1 in return for the charge. This would make charging an assault mech a desparation attack AS IT SHOULD BE. Yes it would be hard to hit an assault mech .. but if you do the armor won't help it and it will take a fair amount of damage .. but you, in return, are going to get hit hard for the effort. In CBT, could a scout mech charge an assault mech and hope to live longer than another turn or so? H*** no .. and I see no reason why it should differ here!

5) This one is more of an afterthought and probably isn't needed if the above are done. But I was thinkin about what happens when you miss a charge. When you miss .. well .. you MISSED. I don't see why you would take damage from it. The target managed to step out of the way in time. If you miss a charge you should still take the heat but no damage. But. When you place your unit in base contact with the target you should have to place your figure with its rear arc facing the target. This shows that you basically ran past the target. You now have a big fat bullseye painted on your back. Thus another downside.

So .. basically you can charge ... but at a much smaller distance .. it still does plenty of damage that blows through armor but not quite as much as before ... but now it does much more damage to yourself in the process and if you miss you are sure to get nailed with a backshot. This doesn't sound like a primary attack mode .. more like a desparation attack ... but you know what? That's what it was supposed to be in the first place! Go figure.

IMHO, it's more a problem with the charge mechanic...Limiting it to 1.5 or 1x movement is a possible solution...also, would a MANDATORY 3 heat be a good idea (4 for a push, which is insane...but...)

As of right now, a charge's benefits for some mechs (even those who are "designed" as ranged attackers) outway the risks...Limiting charge to 1.5/1x movement and increasing the heat penalty would (help) bring the game back into the light of RANGED combat...

Mid :)

A 'Fix' to charge is a poser, not as simple as it looks. For an average mech the heat garnered by a charge can be devestating, especially if the defender lights you up with energy attacks.

Part of the problem with Arnis is his Evade, making charge a no risk option for him.

Here are a few Tweaks that might bring charge more in line without wrecking the whole game system:

-Evade SE (heat reduction) does not work with Charge. Basically you're to focused on running and crashing to worry about heat management.

-Heavy and Hardened Armors reduce charge damage.

-A successful charge deals 2 damage to the charger, primary damage to the chargee (brawling still adds). A missed charge deals no damage whatsoever to either party.

-After playtesting all those tweaks I would consider reducing charge range to 1.5 x movement.

Thoughts?

Let's not overfix the charge mechanic. It is the counter to tank drop, like it or not. Therefore, the range should not change.

Just make it so that the risk it _usually_ not worth it.

******Give the charger the defender's primary damage -1, to a minimum of one click.*****

Easy fix, does not alter point costs of units already in use. Try this fix first. Do not alter charging in the rear arc, though, since the target is apparently not prepared to defend, can't get a shot off, etc. Think about it -- other fixes will end up being complicated to explain, time consuming during the game, etc. This is simple and streamlined.

If this one change alone does not fix charge, then fix it a little more with extra heat, 1.5x movement, etc. But I truly think that risking massive damage will stop rampant charging against mechs in perfect health. Charging will still be used against heavily crippled mechs, transports, etc. That's fine with me.

Alternately, units with JJ or evade could get a bonus to their defense (makes perfect sense.) But this could make some units undercosted by making those SE's more powerful. It would let me use my HL Koshi, though. Personally, I don't even think this will be necessary if allow for primary damage -1 to charger.

Hmm.

Solutions that I have seen and like

Evasion Adds +2 to charge defense (apply to evasion and DFA)
Limit charge range to printed move value
Heavy Hardened armor Reduces damage of a charge (ram and DFA should apply as well)

Suggestions I Personally didn't like, but are still good ideas
Reduce charge damage
Target of charge gets a free strike prior to charge hitting
Increase defense for the target of a charge (+1 or +2 like DFA targets)
Charger takes more damage on a successful charge.

these are, for the most part, good solutions to help limit the effectiveness of charge without castrating it to the point it is a useless game mechanic.


Jim

The problem is not arnis. The Problem is is the mechanic of charge.
i would give to all mechs dodge on 4+ in a D6 against especial attacks, however it would add 1 dice roll to the mechanics, but have a great advantage, charge would be harder to hit and targets would have a way to return the attack.
a failed Special attack missed because of Dodge, would not cause damage to either unit.

I don't mind the range. I just think that it should be riskier. There should be some penalty to attack since you aren't using the sophisticated targeting equipment that is built into the attack value.

RECAP on some ideas by category
1. reduce charge range
2. reduce damage done by charge or make damage more random
3. limit charger to targets in front arc
4. charging should take a strait line
5. failed charges should put charger's rear arc to target.
6. Charger should take more damage or heat
7. Only HtH mechs should be able to charge.
8. Armor works against charging
9. Defender gets a pre-attack.
10. penalty to att/bonus to def.
11. Allot more I missed or forgot reading the posts.

I've left out those suggestions I saw that were beyond the scope of charging itself (move and shoot, changes to formation). I'd like to see some of those tried, but any changes made because of charge should be about charge. We also need to limit any changes to the smallest and simplest necessary. I suggest avoiding anything that changes the damage or adds or subtracts amounts to attack or even heat. It is just something else to remember. We need to limit the tactical circumstances of charges. Thats why I suggest one or two of the following suggestions (1,3,4, and 5 from above)
reduce charge range
limit charger to targets in front arc
charging should take a strait line
failed charges should put charger's rear arc to target.

The preattack is tempting, but adds more resolution time to charges. Charging should remain a viable option, just limit its usable circumstances to well thought out strategy or desperate measure.

A charge is already risky enough, so why change it?

Arnis is not the uber'Mech every one likes to make him to be.

It is so easy to control what he can and can't charge, that it's pointless IMO to now change the rules regarding charging.

The last time Arnis charged the only unit I let him charge(my DF Maxim)he missed it anyways. Yeah, I was trembling. Then he was gone in 3 turns after that. The Maxim even blasted him next turn and hit with it's IT.

I've noticed though that people would rather complain or have the rules changed than to think for themselves how to re-invent their army builds or their battle field strategies.






:ermm:

As I posted in the Battlemaster's forum over at Wizkids. Eliminate charge and you will anger the vast majority of the largest player group playing MW, the DF players. Take a look at the FW results and the number of players for each faction. Now take out the vulture variable. Moreover, while you are at look at the second place finishers. Eliminating charge MAY (key word here) force a lot of players to walk away from the game because 99% of their Mechs have become useless. How else is a DF or SC player going to stop a turtle? Our arty. Yeah right. BR player stopping a turtle, if he has Kenney. Most people do not. (I do not know a whole heck of a lot about BR so if I am wrong forgive me) Before charged is fixed look out the long-term results across the board.

Thanks,
Shane

(I know the grammar in this post is flawed and it was meant to be, conversational English at its best.)

One of the things I never understood was why the charging mech or ramming veh only took one click of damage (plus the heat rolls on mechs). If the damage is caused by the impact shouldn't it cause it to both units in a more proportional manner? Perhaps equal to the damage indicator minus one for the attacker and the damage plus one for the defender or something similar. I know it's not real world but look at two cars, say in a demolition derby, that intentionally ram each other. The both take substantial damage and sometimes neither can leave the field after contact.

Well if they ban Arnis, then for the sake of all that's fair, they'd have to ban other units from tourney play like the some of the artilllery units and Helo's, but that's a different can'o worms. Banning is not the answer, every faction should infact have it's own "Charge Monkey's" each one unique in it's own abilities.
Charge is supposed to be there to "weaken" those units that have High defense and Hardened to Heavy armor. The only change I see that needs to made, is that you can only charge other 'Mechs, but that's my opinion.

Until I read this post, I thought that the 1X speed thing was the best fix, but I think NickName's right - this leaves us with much trouble concerning tank drop. His fix applies only to Mechs, which I think is our main concern. Let vehicles fend for themselves!

My main goal in supporting any rules changes is to keep shifting Mechs closer to the center, as necessary units in any balanced army. Fixing charges against Mechs ONLY helps do that. Good ideas!

I also like the adjusted heat rolls, but maybe that is a little bit off topic . . . For another day!