And now for something positive: at least this game with its rules and FAQs is thought-provoking. MW:DA, it stimulates the brain!

And gets the blood pressure... err, heart pumping;) .

Some questions about terrain. I understand why Scuba Jonah and his fishing hole got nixed, but why was abrupt elevated made no longer tourney legal ?(can't remember for the life of me)
Also, while I agree that the hills and rooftops that Warflail mentioned can be fun, what sorts of issues would they pose that would prevent them from being made official? Relating to roofs, one of the main things that springs to mind is the oddness that ensues when you get a unit that up until a few seconds ago had jump jets stuck... (had that happen during a game with a friend of mine... a pair of HL mechs and a DF Crimson Hawk duking it out a bit. One of my mechs survived, minus the ability to get back down, and was relegated to plinking the rest of the game:cheeky: )

I don't think Abrupt Elevated Terrain was ever considered tournament legal, but it would make a fun addition. The only issue I see it that everyone around here puts their transported units on top of buildings.

"Now, was that CBA in the Saxon or on top of the building??"

And in what way is pog warrior any worse then the vtol warrior we have now?

The plain fact is that ANY rules imbalance that allows any one unit type to imbalance the game to such an extent that its the only unit type realistically playable in high level competition is very bad for the game.

1) First turn immunity.

While I beleive 1st turn immunity should not be necesary because no units should have ever been created that allowed damage to be dealt on turn one to units inside your opponents deployment zone since there are such units this rule is a must.

2) No tankdrop.

Towed vehicles should be placed on the board at all times and be legal targets of attack. As an alternative, go with a No Action After Disembark strategy similar to the heroclix No Action After Taxi rule ( for vehicles only ) to simulate the "set up" time associated with the vehicle dropping its tow gear or driving off the trailer, etc.

3) VTOLs can popup/shoot/popdown with their movement points.

My personal thought is that vtols that move and shoot should be given two tokens ( one for the move, one for the shoot ) up to a max of two tokens and take a click if they had a token already or none if they didn't.

4) Charging requires line of sight at the beginning of the charge.

Mechs come equipped with a multitude of internal sensors, heat, magnetic, visual, IR, you name it, they most likely got it. Now, if I know my enemy has a warhammer on the field and I see PPC fire coming from behind the big rock and my Heat Sensors scream "big mech HERE" why can't I set of at a trot and as I clear the rock and see the warhammer sitting there with steam rising from its heat sinks after that PPC volley pick up speed and slam into it? Linebackers do this for a living in the NFL. They don't always have clear LOS to the target when they move side to side behind the line, they drift in the general direction until they acquire a target and then slam into it.

As far as game reasons, charge is the biggest strong point mechs got goign and unless you propose to include an alternative to this then nerfing it is out of the question.

I beleive this very thing is what will end wizkids.

As it stands now there is ZERO reason for anyone to buy a FP booster. If this set follows the typical patter 95% of the units will be relegated to the sheet box and the 5% that are useful will be available MUCH cheaper on ebay.

I also suspect that the "lemon" units exist not because wizkids is making bland units, but because there point cost system is horrible skewed and innacurate.

In an "ideal" system the point costs would accurately reflect the units abilities and any 450 pt army would be relatively competative with any other 450 pt army thereby making each individual unit viable instead of relegating the game to the top 1-2% of "broken" pieces released.

Late edit - Ok, there is ONE reason to by FP boosters, sealed events...

We played a test game using the 6 rule changes outlined by my
post on page 3, some results of that were...

Army Selection - was more interesting, we could consider some
units that hadn't been used in a while.

Game was 600pts 4 orders;
My SS Centurion, Jacob Senn, Sniper, Balac, HQ, J37, 2x TAC,
3x Special forces, 2x Mortors, Kage, SRM team
VS
SW Seka, Kendrick, A4 Tank, J37, 4x Fenrir, 3x CBA

As it turned out we both picked fairly balanced forces, the arty
while useful did not dominate, I used the Balac incorrectly and it
got killed right away, overall it was a fun balanced game.

I suppose the next thing to do is take unbalanced armies against
a balanced control army(s) and see if we can break the game
using these rules (ie; many arty, or many VTOL, or many tanks)

Just some info,
S

First and foremost, there are two simple changes that really need to be made.

1. Setup order. P2 should infiltrate second, negating first turn free kills for P1.

2. Build force limits. No more than 2 VTOLS or 2 Artillery vehicles per 450 points. You can put in 2 of each, but after those four units, your force needs to have something else in it.

Aside from those, there are quite a few good ideas.

- Mech move and shoot , spend 2 speed points to make a ranged combat attack while moving.

- Mechs and vehicles firing out of base contact with infantry.

- Charge being limited to a single movement distance, but otherwise leaving it alone.

- Vehicles being able to "short range combat" anyone in base contact for half their primary damage, when their "main gun" isn't suited to short range (IE the Behemoth tank being "tied up" by a Peasant Company is just wrong)

- All infiltrates at single movement rate.

I'm sure there are plenty of others, but these would do a significant job of reducing cheese.

Couple of thoughts brought up by the last post

Only speed mode FOOT should infiltrate double there movement.

Units may shoot out of base contact ( perhaps with a -1 to hit or somesuch ) if they are "bigger".

i.e.

Infantry can not shoot out of base contact

Vehicles can shoot out if based by infantry, but not other vehicles or mechs

Mechs can shoot out if based by Infantry or vehicles, but not other mechs.


The other alternative is to allow you to shoot out of base ontact provided your target has a higher point cost then the unit basing you.

1) First Turn Immunity-Dumb concept. But so is infiltrating into base contact before you even really start the game. Please explain to me how a battle starts in close combat? Were the ATVs and Sprints hiding under rugs? I can see an inattentive commander missing some specialized units camo'ed in ambush, (Guillas) but not a 'mech, armor asset, or a squad of (infantry)vehicles. Was the advancing army asleep? Mines are another issue, but I won't raise that potential nightmare here. Upshot-Nix double infiltrate. Simple. Walking 'mechs don't overheat to reign in the resulting arty problem. Simple.

2) I'm frankly so tired of tankdrop nerf discussions I could plotz.
Garrots should be the only POSSIBLE exception, (Towed assets aside) and you risk losing both units to AA fire. Suck it up WK and get a clue. TAC drop is bad, but they just sit there after the drop. tie up the transport and eat them up before help arrives.
Important Note: Too many cooks spoil the broth. With multiple (sometimes conflicting) orders, troops get even more disorganised. Command should be limited to a MAXIMUM of two rolls. You can still bring the pieces, but only get two rolls. This hamstrings the whole arty/meatshield & VTOL/TAC drop nonsense. Sorry Corle. I still love you.

3) VTOLs in modern day warfare are terrifying. IF used correctly. This is why Sadam still had control after Desert Storm. The future should be no different. Use AA and/or your own VTOLs. WK should make 'stinger' infantry. (Kanazuchis almost fill this bill now.) They should make dedicated AA 'mechs. (Duh!)

4) Charge: AAAAAUUUUUGGGGGHHHH! I can't stand this anymore. Charge should be limited to 1 or at MOST 1.5 movement. You have to pilot the 'mech AND target the weapons at the same time. I've always rationalized that the damage from charging was from return fire, not bumping. Charging was needed early to overcome armor. Artillery and AP have covered this. Artillery was the one saving grace of the ludicrous tactic. Now with the nerf, it's just an embarasment. Line of sight is a no-brainer.

Units with minimum ranges should use the indirect fire rules inside those ranges. This has been proposed so many times, by so many good players, I'm blue in the mouth. Them you might actually see a Behemoth or two.

Rant Off.

Again, I'd like to say: I'm tired of all the nerfs. I'd like to see a positive change, where 'Mechs got help.

Not to sound contradictary, but nerfing charge will help mechs. Sure, mechs are also currently hurt by the various non-mech units out there that have great synergy together. But more than any other reason, when I ask people why they don't play certain potent mechs, and only a dozen or so different mechs are ever fielded, they tell me it is because of charge. All the mechs fielded have the charge meta-game in mind when dealing with a serious game. All the mechs either make great chargers, have high defense, or have agility. That is just sad to hear :(. No other army design will work? Because of a mechanic that every other miniatures game I've ever played has utilized?

Charging requires LOS. It's so simple, but so necessary. A mechanic that the vast majority of miniatures games out there eventually come to use because they work. Invariably charging always amounts to some sort of offensive bonus. As it stands now in MW, I don't feel the penatlies for charging outweight the bonuses. Even the damage being dealt back is not fair in relation to the damage dealt. Not with the particularly harsh implications of first strike in this game. Dealing even 2 damage more to an opponent than to yourself has powerful repurcussions in MWDA. The opponent's attack value drops 1-2 points, and their defense, move and damage rating all likeky drop 1 point lower than yours does. And that kind of across-the-board decrease in stats causes first strike to be far more powerful in this game then in most others.

Players will have more options knowing that Arnis and his ilk cannot run across the board around all obstacles and piledrive into your hidden mech, sending it into worthless clicks. Maybe ranged combat will come into the game again. If tankdrop is prevented from being abused while keeping some form of the mechanic (my suggestion is posted a ways up in the thread), VTOLs will become the longest range standard units in the game, paying for it with a much frailer dial. They pay the point cost of a decent-sized tank, but their stats plummet with every successful hit. And with AA now a force in the game, everything would have a foil in a way the game hasn't really experienced yet.

Mech playability is primarily based on heat dials. To be even remotely playable a mech has to be able to take action after action without problems.

Charge has little influence on my mech selection. There is nothing I like to see more than my opponent charge my mech. The downside of charge is now big enough that most chargers don't survive the game.

Requiring LOS for charge will only serve to empower VTOLS. They can shoot from behind obstacles with no threat of retaliation. Thus this is a bad idea. Any change to mech capabilities has to been seen thru the prism of non-mechs units first and foremost. This is why I opposed the last set of charge changes.

If it were left to me. IMHO the fixes would be:

-Units may not be given a ranged combat order on the same turn they were disembarked from a transport. This eliminates TAC and tank drop completely but still permits units to move and base and thus utilize transports for just that … transporting.

-VTOLs may expend 12 movement points in order to do a move-and-shoot but may only conduct the attack at the end of its movement. Thus you can move and then take a shot but after taking the shot your action is over immediately so you can’t duck back out of range or behind a building. This will permit you a first strike but it is likely you will be retaliated against afterwards. I realize VTOLs in real life can do popup attacks and whatnot but VTOLs are far too overpowered in their current form and need something to balance them out as a whole (not just try to fix them with a new AA piece which will eventually be retired).

-Charge is limited to 1x movement and the damage dealt to the attacker is 1/2 the damage dealt to the target (rounded up to a minimum of 1). Charge is too powerful mainly because it permits some mechs to damage vehicles & mechs from upwards of 30”+ across the board. If you do not require LOS but limit it to 1x distance you still give mechs a chance to damage heavily armored targets that they would normally not be able to damage and can do so without having to be both in LOS and in range of the target (which would be suicide to the charger). So you can sneak up on an Atlas from behind a building and run around to charge it in order to avoid its weapons. The damage change is to increase the drawback to charge. Yes you can still nail an armored target and not need LOS to it but it is now more of a desperation tactic as you will be doing considerable damage to yourself in the process. Arnis and the BR Lego, for example, would now do 3 damage to themselves in the process of a charge. Honestly I find charging in general extremely lame but up to this point it's the only good attack they have in most situations and I realize most people would freak if it were suggested to eliminate the mechanic entirely.

-Mechs do not take a click of heat for walking.

-Units with a minimum range greater than 0” may make a ranged combat attack against targets that are within its minimum range. Add a +3 to the targets defense when conducting the attack.

-Improved Targeting may not be used with a close combat order.

-Close combat formations cannot be used for capture attempts.

-Artillery. Use the newest FAQ change per Wizkids with the following addition. The player firing the artillery must use one action PER POG for both the ready phase and during the firing phase on the following turn. Thus using multiple multi-pog arty will be exceptionally order-intensive and thus not very feasible.

-The Command SEC may only be used to provide a total of one extra order per turn regardless of how many successful command rolls you make in a turn.

But that's just my $.02

I read through this thread quickly, so sorry if this is a repeat idea.

I just wonder how the game would change if Mechs got RETURN FIRE against all non-mech units a la MechHunter - range is not an issue. So a shot that a unit initiates has to be within its stated range min/max. BUT if that unit is fired upon, and is a mech, it would get to make an attack in response (whether it is hit or not).

I also wonder about allowing a mech to hot-cycle their weapons, firing BOTH primary and secondary for a click of heat (in addition to any other clicks of heat they might have to take that turn). That to me seems like the most literal translation of mech firepower & heat buildup. It also might tempt people into RANGED COMBAT which is how I like to play (whenever possible).

Any thoughts?