This is the part I have the problem with. I feel that either everyone should have to roll, or no one should. It feels inconsistent to allow you to roll when you could gain from it, and skip the roll when it might hurt you.

I do agree that BCF is more of a constant factor in attacks than crit missing/hitting (if that makes sense), and so BCF rolls against walls should be allowed. Change the wording of BCF, as DaddyDoom suggested. Easy fix.

One thing to remember is that a long time ago HSS use to have a second option (or really a first option) that allowed you to roll successive attacks to do escalating damage.

Here is an entry from the June 2005 HeroClix FAQ that discusses what happens when rolling a CritMiss in regards to attacking terrain:

With that in mind you can see where the ruling came from.

Doing more research....from the Indy Rulebook:

Thats the root of where the action started (same wording in the IC Rulebook)...

Does that make it about as clear as mud?

Nice digging IceHot - Rep to you for finding an actually documented tangent that relates to the 5 page discussion!

This would be true if it was the attack total that provides the hit. It doesn't. It's an automatic hit. The attack total doesn't matter. The only way a crit miss would overide it is if the crit miss rules specify that they overide an automatic hit.

Well if that wording is still accurate, you wouldn't be able to attack the wall at all if your DaV was < 3. However, it doesn't clear up BCF.

That's just it, you are using B/C/F when you use 'Sunder'. That's the whole point.

The only thing 'Sunder' changes from a normal B/C/F attack, is the need to roll a d6 to determine the amount of Damage you will deal. Instead, when you use 'Sunder' to attack a wall, object or square of blocking terrain, your damage automatically becomes 3 for that attack.

Sunder
Prerequisites: Blades/Claws/Fangs
Choose a character.

When the character succeeds at a close combat attack targeting blocking terrain, a wall, or an object, it deals 3 damage.
3 Points

That's incorrect. I can make a normal attack w/o BFC and still score the 3 damage granted by the feat. I do not have to roll to hit the wall.

That's where you are incorrect. It is the reason why 'Sunder' has the wording:

'When the character succeeds at a close combat attack'.......

Otherwise that wording is not needed. Nothing else about the usage of B/C/F is changed when you use 'Sunder', except the need to roll a d6 to determine the Damage. Otherwise B/C/F is used as normal, which includes the need to roll a successful attack.

Again, simply take 'Sunder' out of the equation. I have a character that has 1 or 2 Damage with B/C/F. I want to use said character to destroy a wall, object or square of blocking terrain. What do I need to do? According to B/C/F:

BLADES/CLAWS/FANGS When this character is given a close combat action, you may roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll. The result replaces this character’s damage value, then that damage value is locked.

I cannot simply roll my d6 to determine if I have a high enough Damage to destroy the target, I must make a successful attack roll to activate B/C/F. Successful in this instance being anything other than a Critical Miss.

'Sunder' doesn't change the basic usage of B/C/F, it just eliminates the need to roll the d6 after you make the successful attack roll.

I know this came up as a question when I first started judging HeroClix (Ultimates/Mutant Mayhem), and the answer from the RA was "Sure, why not? But they risk the crit miss, too". It may pre-date that, but it was definitely an understood rule by then.

It does seem an "odd sock" kind of rule, and a change wouldn't hurt my feelings, but it's not a new thing.

The use of a feat does not mean that you have to use the Pre-Req, there is no use of B/C/F, it does not say "When this characters uses B/C/F against a wall...."

It doesn't say you are not using it either. And given the wording of the feat, I'd argue that you are in fact using B/C/F when you use this feat.

Again though, toss the feat aside. Simply look at the way B/C/F works. It only activates on a successful attack roll. Not a successful attack, but specifically a roll.

In the end it really makes no difference and I am not sure why some people are 'upset' with the way attacking objects, walls and blocking terrain works? Is it really that big of a deal?

This seems a like a big deal to you since you keep posting in this thread.

Anyways, if a requirement is not specifically stated in a game effect, then that requirement cannot be assumed. There are many effects in the game that only require an attack. By your logic, all of these powers that don't specifically say you aren't using X power could be made illegal when they don't use X even tho X is not mentioned in the power.

Sunder
Prerequisites: Blades/Claws/Fangs
Choose a character.

When the character succeeds at a close combat attack targeting blocking terrain, a wall, or an object, it deals 3 damage.
3 Points

The feat's effect does not mention B/C/F anywhere in the text.

And example of when you could use this feat and not B/C/F is a character using Hypersonic Speed (and able to use blades) would be able to deal 3 damage to a wall and destroy it.

So, you are saying that a character with HSS and BCF couldn't use Sunder during HSS to knock down a wall? This is not true.

You do not need to use the pre-req to use the feat.

EDIT: And my point was already made by Metal Santa, whose post I somehow skipped completely.

The Arbs have ruled the following.If I want to use this power but there are no targets in sight, I can declare a Running Shot, move half my distance and not make an attack. I can then roll for the 5/6 to heal him. All b/c of the word "may" in the attack portion of running shot. Since BFC includes the same "may" there is really no reason to roll when using Sunder. Sorry.