Hmm... You must be thinking of a different mech. Prowler is 158. Pilot is 30. If you are thinking of Persuader. And I dont think you need pulse nor do you need Ydek. Without anything at all persuader is an outstanding mech. (Faction is only 15). So Alpha vs Persuader without any frills you have a fairly evenly matched dual. For 30 points you can slap in Ydek and gain a defense 23, attack 11, move of 10. I would take this combo. All it takes is one infantry to really mess with alpha's day. That 2 inch minimum on Alpha's secondary just hampers it against Persuader.

This is kinda like a my mom can beat up your mom. Is Alpha the best mech ever (as the title asks?). I still have to say no. I think the following mech/pilot/gear combos out perform it:
Persuader/Ydek
Crusader/Sanduval/Agility
Mangonel/Aiko/Decoy
X-Axis/Sanduval (which is techically still possible until they release a FAQ. Ruling on WK's forums are not tournament legal until published in a FAQ).

Anywho. Dems my thoughts on this subject.

I didn't say anything about prowler. Go back and read my list. I listed Persuader, Chikako, and Geoff Bekker.

Additionally I should mention that the thread title was that Mangonel was the best mech IN THE GAME. It didn't say anything about the point cost. Thus this thread is open to comparing ANY mech and pilot combo to Kerensky and Alpha to find a better combo. There are lots of them. Take a deep breath, read again and next time you won't make a fool of yourself.

Hey hey settle down there Mr. Freak.

He just sais Prowler instead of Persuader... a simple slip of the tongue (or mind) is nothing to flame at.

In addition, I would say that given that this entire game is based around point costs, a 'mechs point cost is considered as part of its value. When you say Persuader is better, I say no, because it costs more points. This is simply another statistic, like attack value or defense.

Can we please just stop making the same point over and over again? We know it isn't the "best 'mech ever". No one ever said it was--not once. But it is a good and viable 'mech. Period.

-Coop

Right on Exis:)

kool that is awesome

The title of the thread is "Alpha Mangonel best mech ever". So yes someone did say it was the best mech ever. It is the title of the thread. Your point about costs is a good one. However, that isn't what the title says. The title says that Alpha is the best mech ever. That is all. That implies that the author is challenging anyone to compare a mech and pilot combo to Alpha and that no matter what it is that it won't be as good. That opens the statement up to any scrutiny. It doesn't say the best mech for its cost, or the best mech in the Steel Wolves. In my first post, I calmly offered 3 mech pilot combos that were better than Alpha, rather than try to discuss that point, I was ridiculed for saying Prowler (not one of the mechs I listed) was better when it wasn't something I said. So I responded. I also said in my first post that Alpha was a great mech. Never once did I say Alpha was not good.

This isn't about who's mech is better. I merely offered a counter argument to an argument, and was ridiculed for saying something I didn't say. I suppose I could have just not said anything else. Next time I probably won't. Regardless, I still stand by my original premise. If it is a toe to toe battle, I would take the three mechs I listed as well as Caber with Tara for that matter against Alpha. Alpha is solid but far from the best this game has to offer.

Well Freakboy, I did read the wrong mech. I hardly think that makes a fool of me like you say. But you can take your prowler, or persuader with their pilots. And I'll take my Alpha with her pilot and I'll make you look like a fool when I beat either one.

Your way is still the ONLY way, eh? Nice to see you're still making friends and
influencing people. :cheeky:

FYI, Freakboy was referring to the thread topic with his follow-up post. He was
telling you that the thread starter was inviting comparisons with other combos by
titling this thread the way he did. Since you obviously can't grasp that, you are
kind of making a fool of yourself. Lighten up and realize that it's okay to look at
things from more than ONE perspective. It is. Really.

Perhaps you would. Perhaps not. This thread wasn't about what you could do. Its about how Alpha stands up to other mechs. According to you, it is the best mech ever (read your own title). If you are going to make a superlative like that you shouldn't get irrate when people call you out on it. You are trying to turn this into a "I could kick your butt no matter what mech you play" discussion. I'm not interested in that in the slightest. I am interested in your justification for claiming Alpha as the king of mechs. If you don't want people to call you out on it, then you shouldn't make such grandiose claims. If your best response to the options I offered is that "I will make you look like a fool when I beat either one" you are missing the point of the conversation entirely. You don't offer a shred of objective information to support your idea. You don't bother comparing the combos I offered, you just retort that your the better player. That is irrelevant to this conversation. We are debating what is the better mech. Personally I don't care a bit for Persuader, but I can recognize how powerful a unit it is. Alpha is severely handicapped by its 21 defense. Simply stated, it is too easy to hit. If you can't see the difference between me pointing out the weaknesses in your argument and pointing out weaknesses in your playing then we really have nothing to discuss. If you want people to completely agree with you, talk to yourself in a mirror. I guarantee whatever you say will be identical to what the fellow looking back at you will say too.

My mistake on the title thing, I went back and had it wrong on who started the thread. However, the rest of my post stands.

Alpha w/Kerensky and IT is the most solid 'Mech in the game. You can't land a Charge reliably after the Charge nerf, and even if you could it wouldn't deal good damage. It's almost impossible to land the first shot against her because her AO is 21" and her heat dial is quite forgiving. She finds it difficult to miss anything because she has 12 IT, the highest effective attack value on a single unit that's (currently) possible.

Of course, ECM Suite on an Assault (Chikako, Persuader) against this combo guarantees a win, but that's not the point; the point is, there's not a broad diversity of army types that can beat her, and other tricked-out 'Mech combos--while potent--don't quite measure up. The highest attack value attainable (with one exception, which doesn't really count) is 12 IT; Alpha's 21" AO is almost the highest in the game, and it deals 5 damage AP (other similarly long-ranged pieces deal less damage and/or non-infantry-killing energy); Alpha has a faction symbol that lets her be used with no less than 4 potent SA cards (and one more that doesn't help her); she has SU gear that lets her quickly and easily get to her prime; she has an amazing heat dial; she's simply the best.

Now I'm not saying that she's unbeatable or anything. No piece--not even ridiculously broken ones, like the BR Sprint, BR LE Combat Engineer, JF Sylph, and DF Donar--is unbeatable. That's not what being "the best" means. Alpha is the best because no other piece does what she does as well as she does it, and lots of pieces try. Her low defense is not a meaningful weakness when she can't be Charged and she can't be outranged and she can't be out-danced. She'll get in the first hit and then her target will be done. If you pinprick her for 2 damage with the only 'Mech that can outrange her (Jiyi Chistu), she'll laugh and then assault you back for 4 AP, or retreat to the repair APC. One or two strategies can force her to rely on her support--she needs arty to crack a RHDM w/Decoy, or to loosen up a TD--but, pound-for-pound, she's the best 'Mech you can buy for the points. (And, as I said before, if you want to play paper-rock-scissors, she's helpless against the ECM Suite gear.)

Clearly everyone has their own opinion on this and I don't totally disagree with what you said. However, when the question is posed "are there any mech pilot combos superior to Alpha and Kerenskh?" then I simply put together in my mind what I thought were the best mech pilot combos and ran a simulation. As I said in one of my first 3 posts, I made the assumption in all 3 cases that Alpha hit the first shot and the mech/pilots in question took the damage. Then I posed the question "what now". I then looked at the stats for each combo after the 5 damage and tried to figure out what the response would be. As an example...

Chikako with Gabriel Smith vs. Alpha with Kerensky no gear for either
Since I am only comparing mechs and pilots (like the title of thread asks) I don't consider any support in the equation.

So at start Chikako/Smith has
Primary Ballistic 5 dmg 2/14 range with Steaks
Secondary Energy 3 dmg 0/8
Movement 9
Attack 12
Defense 22

Alpha/Kerensky at the prime click has
Primary Energy 3 dmg 0/12 range
Secondary Ballistic 5 dmg 2/16 range with AP
Movement 9
Attack 12
Defense 21

Now we begin the similation assuming neither mech began with an order before the simulation and the simulation starts when Chikako moves into Alphas assault range. Further I give Alpha the benefit of the doubt and assume it achieved its prime click before Chikako engaged.

So Turn 1
Chikako move into Alpha's assault range
Alpha attacks with an AO and hits for 5AP and takes one heat for the AO

Each units stats at the start of turn 2
Chikako
Primary Ballistic 4 dmg 2/14 range
Secondary Energy 3 dmg 0/8
Movement 9
Attack 11 with IT
Defense 21

Alpha
Primary Energy 3 dmg 0/12 range
Secondary Ballistic 5 dmg 2/16 range with AP
Movement 9
Attack 12
Defense 21

Turn 2
Chikako makes an AO to fire at Alpha - He needs a 11 on his roll and he has IT. Insomuch as this shot is easier than the one we gave to Alpha in the first turn, we assume Chikako hits as well. This gives Chikako 2 heat, which is clear on its dial.

Now Alphas stats are

Primary Energy 2 dmg 0/12 range
Secondary Ballistic 3 dmg 2/16 range
Movement 8
Attack 11
Defense 20

So now Alpha can either rest or return fire. Since its heat dial is clear Alpha returns fire not needing an AO. She needs a 10 to hit Chikakos 21 defense. Since this shot is easier than the other shot she has taken to this point we assume again that she hits for the 3 damage (she would need an AO to us her energy weapon which would give her an extra click of heat. Somone might would do that to try to heat Chikako up, but I am assuming she is going for the damage to try to get Chikako worn down.) This causes her to gain one heat for the push putting her on her second click which is clear.

Now Chikakos stats are
Primary Ballistic 2 dmg 2/14 range
Secondary Energy 2 dmg 0/8
Movement 8
Attack 11
Defense 20

Now Chikako attacks Alpha again causing a push and getting to its third click of heat. He needs a 9 to hit which is very likely so we assume he does. On Chikako's third click of heat it has one yellow shutdown role that is rolled after the attack resolves. So, he has a 1 in 3 chance of shutdown. Since the probability is higher that he doesn't shut down we will assume he doesn't.

Now Alpha's stats are

Primary Energy 0 dmg 0/12 range
Secondary Ballistic 2 dmg 2/16 range
Movement 7
Attack 10
Defense 19

Knowing that Alpha's third click of heat is essentially clear, they push again and need to roll a 10. Again we assume she hits and now Chikako's stats are

Primary Ballistic 2 dmg 2/14 range
Secondary Energy 2 dmg 0/8
Movement 8
Attack 10
Defense 19

Chikako knowing it has several heat rolls coming up vents taking it back two clicks of heat to a clear part of its dial. Now Alpha can attempt an attack that will surely hit, but she will have two heat rolls to worry about. The ammo explosion roll at this point won't hurt her at all, but there is a 1 in 3 shutdown roll. I would probably vent Alpha to get full damage on the next attack, so Alpha vents now as well regaining 2 heat.

Now Chikako attacks Alpha needing to roll a 9, which we will again assume he does. Now Alpha's stats are

Primary Energy 0 dmg 0/12 range
Secondary Ballistic 2 dmg 2/16 range
Movement 7
Attack 9
Defense 19

Now alpha returns fire needing to roll a 11 which we will assume she does. Now Chikako has been hit for a total of 12 clicks.

Primary Ballistic 0 dmg 2/14 range
Secondary Energy 2 dmg 0/8
Movement 8
Attack 10
Defense 19

He now has to use an assault order to close the distance which he does and needs a 9 to hit Alpha's defense. This is again a favorable roll so we assume he hits for two more damage and Alpha is salvaged. Game over.

All I have done is remove the Rock/Paper/Scissors element of this and said that all elements being equal (no gear, no PC, no terrain) and following a logical battle progression, which mech would win. The answer is chikako. Any of the top mech/pilot combos can weather that first shot from Alpha and still return with enough firepower to knock well off its prime click. At that point it is simply a matter of whose dial is the longest. This is just one of my examples. You could use a similar simulation for any of them. I know it is an oversimplification, but that is the point. To eliminate the "my guns are bigger than yours" aspect of this and do what the title asked, see if Alpha is the best mech EVER. The answer, is no.

Freakboy, calm down. You said these other mechs are better. I say Alpha is better. Just stating my opinion like you are. I just thought it was dumb that you said that a mech + pilot + equipment + faction ability is better that alpha + pilot. Well... duh, if you add extra stuff then yeah. But question was, is alpha the best.. period. Give alpha decoy and +1 balistic damage from an alliance and she's better now too.

As far as your battle scenario. Both mechs hit every time they shot, which doesn't happen often. I know that you were doing the hits based on how good the chance to hit was. But mechwarrior is about more than that.

There are other factors. Stuff like, alpha's 16 range. That can be important because in some cases, I can stay beside my other units and shoot you. While you'd have to assault away from your units to shoot at me. It's little things like that.. that I think make Alpha so good. Not the best, but better than the mechs you named. Like, why is Bekker so good? Yeah his stats are ridiculous, but one of his best aspects is his 360 arc. It's the little things man.

Dude, you admit your analysis is oversimplified. You don't factor in the fact that Chikako is pricier, or that Alpha's heat dial is better, and both of those factors are very, very relevant. What you're saying, as near as I can tell, is that dial longevity is the ONLY meaningful attribute a 'Mech can have. And that's just plain not true.

Sure, an assault 'Mech can take a 5 damage hit from Alpha and still be alive. If Alpha just sits there and trades hits with Chikako, Chikako will outlast her. Do you seriously contend that this fact is at all relevent to actual tournament play? Your strategy analysis isn't even accurate; on the second shot from Alpha to Chikako, the wise player will AO to fire with Alpha's energy. If Chikako shuts down, in your analysis the game is over. If Chikako makes the shutdown check, its controller still will be afraid to push the unit again because the next click has 2 critical rolls. (Or Alpha can AO with her ballistic a second time; to counterattack, Chikako will have to AO again, which will put it on that double critical heat click even if it hits.) So basically your analsis is both irrelevant (because you're ignoring the support that will always be present) and critically flawed (for the reasons I just stated).

Nobody is saying that Alpha can beat every other 'Mech in the game one-on-one every time. That's not what being the best means. Alpha is the best all-around 'Mech because she's got great damage and range and accuracy and a good weight class that lets her have good gear and a special power that makes her unchargeable and she's quite reasonably priced.