Blanket generalizations, FTW!

You have a better explanation for it?

Posts that add no real content, FTL!

I can always manage to whittle my decks down to 61 cards pretty easily.

It's that last card that I have the hardest time cutting, there never seems to be an 'obvious' choice.

61 card decks are for people who know they need 61 cards. Including the right number of each card is more important than hitting that 60. And if you're including cards that are weak enough to be cut, why were you playing with any of them in the first place?

The 60 cards vs. 61 cards argument has been fought so many times, frankly I think it's a matter of personal preference. I always run 61 cards and I can assure you it's not because I'm lazy, as Mike seems to think.

Limited is the same way, I always run 32 card draft and sealed decks and I nearly always top 8*. The fact that I don't win has more to do with my playskill than the fact that my deck has 32 cards in it. If running 30 cards would automatically make me not commit egregious play errors then I would do it every time.

But I play because it's fun and not for the money and the glory. (though I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive)


*it should be noted that I'm talking about PCQs and not "real" events.

Playing more than 30 cards in draft/sealed is a way more egregious error than playing 61 cards in constructed. Of course you can win while playing more, but you are likely winning in spite of playing more than 30 cards, certainly not because of it.

Do whatever you want. The 61st card in a constructed deck has a minimal impact. However that impact is a negative one. The 31st card in sealed or draft is asking to lose (and more than that is definitely asking to lose).

could you do a math sheet to explain why 61 card is negative, for those who are to stubborn to realize that..cough-bigrico-cough

You make it sound as if determining the strength and weakness of each card is an easy task.

I find everyone's scientific take on the matter pretty laughable. If you like your 60/61 card deck and it's fun for you to play, awesome.

If it beats the other guy's 61/60 card deck because of (reasons X, Y, and Z), then more power to you! Go out there and win a tourney!

As far as people wanting to get "hard mathematical evidence" that one is better than another...PLAYTEST. See how one option works over the other. Math be damned if an actual game proves otherwise!

Can't we all just get along? :nervous:

dalton, do you think if a person win with a deck of 61 cards its more of a luck than skills, seeing how they must be getting top deck instead of drawing the famous 61 card

oh lemmywinks...when will you learn

Yeah, I know...I expect too much out of humanity sometimes. :disappoin

Some people play for more than fun. They play to win. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, just like there is nothing wrong with throwing 100 card big decks together, drinking beer and watching Crime Lords fight it out with Manhunters. People playing to win entitled to apply as much math as is feasible to the game to determine the best way to win. If you don't see the value in that, fine but don't discourage others from attempting to better themselves.

Obviously playtesting is needed, but we have to start with some basic facts. What if I think a 452 card deck is the way to go? Or maybe 364 is the magic number? How will I ever know unless I playtest all the combinations? Damn, I better start play testing to find out!

I'm not quite that bored today. I can do a brief example though.

If you play 4 copies of a card (say Wild Ride) and want to draw 1 in your opening hand (you mulligan for it) then we can easily figure out the odds of drawing it.

With a 60 card deck:

1st we figure out the odds of not drawing it.

The odds of not drawing it in the 1st card is: 56/60.
If we don't draw it in the 1st card, the odds of drawing it in the 2nd card are: 55/59.
....
If we don't draw it in the 7th card, the odds of drawing it in the 8th card are: 49/53.

So to get the odds we don't draw it in the 1st through 8th cards we see, we multiply: (56/60)*(55/59)*...*(49/53). Which becomes...
56*55*54*53*52*51*50*49 52*51*50*49
---------------------------- = -------------- = .55518
60*59*58*57*56*55*54*53 60*59*58*57

So the odds that we do draw it are 1-.55518 = .44482 = 44.482%.

If you have a 61 card deck, all those #s in there become 1 higher so you get: (53*52*51*50)/(61*60*59*58) = .56112

So the odds that we do draw it are 1-.56112 = .43888 = 43.888%.

So you can see that adding the 61st card lowered our chances of mulligan'ing into a card by about .6%.

(note, I did this math for seeing it in your opening 4 w/ a mulligan, not taking into account the 2 cards you draw 1st turn).

Meeh, the way I look at it: Playing 61 cards deck is like being 140 in the heavyweight division. Sure, you might have some advantages over the 180 lb guy - like speed and agility - but when it comes down to what matters - beating up the other guy - you're essentially handicapping yourself. Playing those extra cards might matter occasionally, but in the greater scheme of deckbuilding - where the ultimate goal is to make sure you draw what you need when you need it - all it does is hinder what you need.

That being said it can be really hard to make cuts for limited.