I dont know. I guess you could poll it. Would players want an intimate 64 or less pool, or 100+.

I imagine I'm not the only guy who wants the more option. But perhaps I am.

I am not really concerned, because while I may play in Grinders, I don't much care about the finals. I really just want to earn the Convention pieces and open Cap boosters. If I can do that with BRs, I'll avoid Grinders altogether.

However, I think the initial discussion points that Squirecam brought up were well worth talking about. I was also a bit alarmed after hearing about what happened at Origins. You and I are flying out to GenCon from the west coast...there better be a reasonable attempt to have product available for us to play with! Having said that, I think it was made pretty clear that there were lessons learned at Origins, and significantly more product will be available. I'm satisfied with what Norm and company have presented for GenCon. But again, I'm not at all concerned with how many people make it through the Grinders to play in the next level of the tournament. There probably are some people besides Squirecam that are concerned about that.

And believe it or not, it's appreciated. That said, we do have a plan and we're confident it will meet demand per reasonable expectations.

For example, anyone showing up at 10 pm to play a three hour event when we've stated we're only there until midnight is not exercising a reasonable expectation.

Furthermore, we've been quite transparent as to what our plans are which are admittedly pretty different from previous years. I don't know what more we can say or do on this matter.


There will be product for evening grinders. I'm not sure what more you want said on this.

You keep answering the question "how many players do you want to play on Saturday". That isn't the question I'm asking. My post to IceHot points out that, to me, the number of players on Saturday is irrelevant because I'd need more than 120 to make 4 round the minimum number of rounds I need to run. So Saturday is good. It's set. The number that get into Saturday is moot.

The issue that has been put forward (by others, not me) is that WK should not "run out of product like at Origins - that was a problem". It may have been you who said that (or something like that) or someone else, no matter.

So that leads to my question of "how much is enough"? To have material for 100 grinders means having 1600 boosters or 80 cases. You seem to feel (and I don't disagree) that expecting WK to have that much product on hand for the weekend (specifically for grinders) is expecting too much. Got it. I agree.

I can say that I've got more than 64 grinders of product that I'm expecting to have on hand at GenCon. They would be evenly split between Thursday and Friday, so it's at least 32 grinders per day. I'll be holding at least 2 grinders of product aside so that there would be a 6:00 event and an 8:00 event (which may require a raffle to get in if the daytime product moves faster than expected).

With those numbers, has WK prepared itself appropriately? If we go to GC and find that there are 80 people waiting to play in grinders on Thursday morning - and half of them drop after their pull so it ends up that we've run 15 of the 32 grinders by 10:30 AM, and we're suddenly on a crash course to easily being sold out of product (barring the 2 hold-asides) by 2:00 PM - would you agree that we took a reasonable approach? Maybe not the numbers YOU would use, but a reasonable approach?

I think anyone who comes at 10:00 to start an 8 person tournament that would end by midnight is already on the short end of the "I think reasonably" stick.

I agree that you've taken certain steps to have evening product available. That was my initial point re: origins.

Everything else was either what to do with droppers, or Norm's discussion of how many grinders to have. Which really doesnt matter because Norms going to have roughly 64 grinders anyway.

I dont expect anything further, just following the discussion as is...

You could add 1 point for 4th place, too.

Perhaps, though, this more or less goes back to the "play clix all convention" to advance that they were trying to avoid, at least for as many players as won Grinders early enough. I think 3 "waves" of Grinders could be run. I'm going to run with this setup since I'm curious, and I'm running algorithm design in my current work project.

To run it, probably have all players (say, 128 so my math is prettier), get randomly assigned to a grinder at 10 am Thurs (woe to the 1-to-7 leftover folks that don't have 8 players! Maybe they just have to wait for 2nd wave) So, 16 grinders. Then play at least 1 round. All the first-round losers get into the next "wave" of grinders. (so that's 64 players). Run it so the 2nd-round losers have to wait til the 3rd "wave".

Then 2nd wave (64 players+1-to-7 who missed 1st wave) plays 1 round. (note: have to guarantee the 1st-wave leftovers get in). All the second-wave's 1st-round losers get into the next "round" of grinders, along with the 1st wave's 2nd-round losers.

So, you'll have 128/8 = 16 grinder winners after 3 hours or so. And you'll have 16 players with 2nd place and 16 players with 3rd place. (and 16 w/ 4th if that matters)

Then, after the 2nd full-grinder, you'll have 8 more grinder winners (total=24), 8 more 2nd-placers, 8 more 3rd placers. This is about 4 or 5 hours after tourney start.

After 2 waves, that's 24 winners, 24 with 5 pts, 24 with 3 pts, possibly 24 w/ 1 pt.

The 3rd wave includes 1st-wave's 2nd round losers (8 folks), 2nd-wave's 1st round losers (24 folks) and any 'extras' from 2nd wave (from 1 to 7 folks). Let's say 36 for run. 4 grinders, max I think, with 1-to-7 not getting a 2nd grinder for the day (sux for them). So, at the end of that wave, you've got 4 more winners, 4 more 2nd place, 4 more 3rd place, 4 more 4th place. This is about 7 or 8 hours after tourney start

Total for the day: 28 winners, 28 with 5 pts, 28 with 3 pts, 28 with 1 pt.
The 2nd day would be everyone except for the 28 trying the same thing?

Compare to last year (I think the following is right?), where the undefeateds (4 or 3 people) in the sealed (5-0, I think) got in, and everyone else tried to advance in the 2nd full day of Floor. So 3 or 4 more undefeateds, then all the 4-1/4-1's=8-2 record got in (7 or 8 people?) and maybe there was one 3-2/4-1=7-3 who got in but as the alternate.

So, I think your proposed system does indeed allow a lot more people to enjoy the con on Friday, while controlling some of the 'gaming' of the grinder system. I do believe, however, that something as simple as, say, automatically letting in all the 4-1 on either of the 2 days, would serve a similar purpose, without all the over head of "Wave-planning" & keeping track of points, etc. Or writing custom software (as Norm presumably has last year's available).


Edit: So everyone would have impetus to play their 1st-round games.
This also allows for anyone to jump into any of the 3 Waves at their pre-announced times.

I agree on 95% of this.

I'll say it again, so if this happens you can at least quote me in your defense, should you actually wish to...

Expecting grinders every 15 minutes in unrealistic. 64 Grinders, plus a few extras is a pretty good expectation. Yes, perhaps WK could choose 70, or 75, but really that puts too much of a time crunch into it. If 500 people show up, then this system wont be in place next year. But you did about the best you could.

The ONLY thing I disagree with on the above is re: drops. Putting a time limit (end of your pool's first round) is one way to avoid the everyone drops scenario. I dont like the fact that 1 player gets to advance by not playing, gets to scout the other players and teams, when he perhaps could have lost because some pull was "deemed" bad.

I do not think that product would run out by half the pool dropping by 10:30. If it does, though, I fully reserve the right to say I told you so.

Nevertheless, I would have a drop rule in effect to protect the integrity of the tournament. I dont think its too much to ask to tell players you have a wait time until the pool is finished before starting a new one. And its not too much to expect players to abide by such a rule.

So, I agree with dkjedi on the drop rule. That said, I'll say the following.

There is a drop rule. No player is allowed to drop from the event until after they've opened their product. Based solely on my experience at Origins and having nothing to do with a commitment on my part, I would guess that it is approximaetly 15 minutes between launching the grinder and someone making the decision that his pull is insufficeint to get him to the top spot.

Now that time is built in. So now we're debating if 15 minutes is the right amount of time or if 60 minutes is.

And again, I get back to the fact that the grinder-dropper is not getting any privleges. They go to the back of the line for their next sign up. No one is standing there waiting for a grinder that the dropper gets to go in front of.

You're basically saying that if someone isn't playing in the tournament the way you want to, they should be punished.

Additional thought. Let's say this rule is put in place. What's accomplished? Now the dropper is going to stay in, yes. But as soon as their alarm clock goes off that they are at 0:55, they are going to walk away and go sign up again. How much is really gained?

Dropper: I think my pull is bad. I'll just quit.

Norm: Well, you have to wait until the pool's first round is over.

Dropper: *thinks* well, if I cant get into the next pool now..might as well *try* to win....

You get people actually trying to win. And the dice may agree. It also prevents that winner from gaining a distinct advantage over his rivals, a free 55 minute look at the opposing teams and playstyles.

I think those are significant gains. I'm also not alone on this one...

Replace underlined portion with:

Dropper: That's stupid, you can't make me play.

or

Dropper: Fine, whatever. (Submits an Army Sheet with one figure on it. The lowest point one from his boosters) Round 1 - hey, Steve, nice to meet you. Yeah, this is my team. Roll for map, place figures. OK, let's go. (Round is over in 5 minutes)

What have you gained? A negative play experience for someone, an annoyed dropper (who, you may not like, but they are just as much my customer as you are), and an added administration for me and my team (either ongoing policing or after the fact DQing)

One other thing:

Just because you are running X number of grinders does not mean you will have X number of participants on Saturday.

Some top level players may win several grinders in attempts to keep other top level players out of the running.

Some players may actually have NO inclination of playing on Saturday, they just want to play for the prize.

Correct.

Which is why you cant sign up until every first round game in your pool is finished. To prevent the 3-5 minute loss.

As to "you cant make me" play. No I cant. Feel free to quit.

But I can stop you from joining pool #2 for 55 minutes (or until every game is over). And I will. So go get food, or do something else. Because you wont be playing clix for an hour.

If told ahead of time, I imagine most clix players will abide by the rule. Some of the more "famous" players might not even try to join another, as Munch might remember he just signed up for an event 5 minutes ago. And if he/she is that good...why risk the DQ...

In any event, the fear of losing the prize you worked to obtain will curb the behavior. But only if its implemented, explained, and enforced, even if its after the fact. And if the player doesnt win worlds, then he is barred from next years worlds for trying to cheat. Still an important penalty.

That was a challenge for me at Origins.

I'd thought about playing a Grinder instead of Battle Royales* each morning. However, I knew I wouldn't play in Nationals. I'd have felt bad if I won and therefore denied someone a chance at Nationals.

-J

* - Mind you, I also thought I could get in two BRs each day before the 1PM event. If BR average an hour to run, then some must be finishing in thirty minutes in order to balance the extremely "deliberate" players in mine.

I don't know if it was said at Origins, but I operate under what was an explicitly stated rule from many past conventions that if you Win a place in the Semis, then re-enter a grinder, then you FORFEIT your originally-won spot.

For instance, I am remembering last year's 5-0 in sealed winners were told they could NOT play in the floor unless they forfeitted their spot.

You are correct. If you win a grinder and then play in another grinder, you forfeit your win. At that point, you better hope that you win again. That's always been the rule in tourneys where spots are at stake and it's the same this year.