True, Tsannik, it IS on the defense powers on the PAC. But it still isn't "defensive" in nature by the token that all other defense powers occur while on your opponents turn (see my above reply). Maybe that's the screw up right there. Maybe willower should be on move. But then, wait...Batman couldn't Leap/Climb to safety.Oh my. What would we have then? No, they had to put Willpower somewhere, and while it doesn't occur on an opponents turn, defense score is probably the best place for it.

But Willpower is an attack power. It can be used in Attack which makes it an attack power. Just like Enhancement, perplex, and outwit.

Just pray they never put out a fig that has Steal Energy and CCE on the same click. Since Steal Energy is not optional it cannot be turned off, therefore you would be paying for a power (CCE) that could never be used.

Imagine the fireworks then.

M!

I don't think that's what is meant. By that logic, almost anything is an attack power. E Dr. Doom is standing next to an opposing fig and he's on his 3rd click (EE and INV). He chooses to EE that opposing fig knowing his INV will protect him from the splash damage. INV was used during the attack, but that doesn't make it an attack power.

M!

It does not matter when the defensive power is used. The fact that it prevents damage to the figure using it means that it is defensive in nature.

It certainly isn't offensive because it does not damage or adversely affect an enemy figure.

Tsannik is right; if they meant that NO OTHER POWERS could be used, then invulnerability, toughness, etc. couldn't be used either. But they can. That is why this is so vague.

How about Leadership? Leadership gives you extra actions. Those actions can be used for attacks. Does that make Leadership an attack power?

M!

Alrighty... then I'm guessing we could all agree that NO power (other than what is on the PAC) has been expressively specified as a either an Attack, Defense or Support power.

At that is one of the problems... is that NO power has been defined as to what 'type' of power it is (whether an Attack, Defense or Support).

redbladegolem:
Team abilities can stack onto RCE or CCE. This is something that has been cleared up in the past a long time ago. The concern is over other powers not team abilities.

To All:
I agree that it is a interesting question, but I also belive that chapeau made the ruling based on WHEN willpower would kick in. To push normally you would perform whatever action it is that caused the push and then take the click of damage as the end of that push action. Since it is still part of the action (in particular the resolution phase) willpower would have to act at the same time that CCE or RCE would work and since you can't use CCE or RCE at the same time as or with any other powers you can't use willpower with it.

I'm not a fan of the catch all statement they threw into the FAQ for CCE and RCE, namely:
but that basically spells out that willpower wouldn't work along with any other power that would have to function on the same action or even turn as CCE or RCE.

I think that reads that willpower won't work and that all other optional powers would be turned off BEFORE CCE or RCE happens and stay that way until the end of the action (at least). Whether the power is defensive or not doesn't matter (though since willpower can be used to avoid taking a click of damage the fact that it is defensive isn't too far fetched of an idea), I think the key is whether or not they are optional. Good point about Steal Energy though, since that isn't optional I would say that it would stay on, but that does seem to be a power that would be used at the same time as CCE or RCE so this issue is still very muddy...

For right now since Steal Energy and *Ce don't exist at the same time I'm going to stick with the optional powers ruling. Since Outwit is optional, I would say that would be turned off for a character to use RCE or CCE. Same with Charge, and same with Super Senses. Toughness and Invulnerability would stay on though since they are NOT optional. However, as soon as the whole action is resolved I would say that the optional powers come back, so Charge would prevent knockback on subsequent attacks, but since Outwit can only be used 1 time per turn I would argue that if it was used before the CCE or RCE then it would be gone for that round. That's my interpretation and my $.02.

I think there are "weirdnesses" in the rules all around, and they will all shake out in time but it is up to all of us to look out for them and bring them up. Pulse Wave and Stealth is a good example. I don't think Stealth should negate the effects of a Pulse Wave. It should negate the ability to USE the Pulse Wave unless there are other targets in range, but if the Pulse Wave CAN be used, then the figure with Stealth (if they are in range) should get hit. Until an official ruling change get's made, we have no choice though but to go with the rules as posted or make a house rule. If you want to use Willopwer and CCE, then that would be a house rule and I have no problem with that. Unless the wording in the FAQ changes, the only thing we have to go by is
and that seems to be a pretty clear indicator that Willpower and CCE don't mix. Adding the word "Optional" before the word "Powers" would help clear things up a lot.

True that...but even if all the powers were defined as attack, defense, whatever, I guess they would still have to say which ones (attack, defense) work with RCE and CCE.

redbladegolem:
when I started my post that bit to you was still relevant... since then I think it lost some / all of it's relation to the current conversation so you can probably ignore it...

I wish I could edit stuff Mr. Moderator guys...

Please give me one example of how you can use Invulnerability or Toughnes in conjunction with CCE or RCE.

yeah I was kinda wondering SoRetarded...

Well...

Invulnerability is ALWAYS on and is Not Optional (cannot be turned off voluntarily)
You declare RCE/CCE

Both powers are 'ON' at the same time.

Remember....

This example somewhat mimics the Super Strength/RCE/CCE example.

Super Strength figure with an object is 'ON' and Not Optional.
You declare RCE/CCE.

Both powers are 'ON' at the same time.

Yeah, Invulnerability/Toughness are not helping RCE/CCE in any way.... but by the words... those powers are being used at the same time.

OK sol, Steal Energy is not optional...it cannot be turned off. So if I used that in conjunction with CCE, I would heal a click of damage.

Or Tsannik's example is good too....