The point of the analysis is to try to demonstrate that there are mechs that can survive a first strike from Alpha and still compete with it. Your argument was that this is a rock/paper/scissors argument because no matter what someone says there is always a counter. So I simply removed all potential counters and looked at the mechs and their pilots. That is what the thread is arguing for. Of course you can argue that you would do things differently from the simulation because you want to believe alpha is the best. Thats fine with me. When it comes time for Nats and worlds again, we will see how many alphas make it to the finals.

I have repeatedly stated that Alpha is a good mech. But if you want to ignore every bit of evidence there is and resort to personal attacks as your only response then have a good time. I'm done trying to convince anyone about Alpha. So go ahead and toss in whatever last word you need to and feel great about how you won the argument. If you won't compare Alpha as a mech alone to other mechs then the entire premise of this thread is a logic fallicy. If you want to compare armys then it becomes nothing more than a rock/paper/scissors argument. The only way to fairly judge Alpha compared to every other mechs is to give them the same support and see what they do. Otherwise it is just who comes up to a counter to the last thing anyone else said.

i have beat all of the above units but 1 arnis have not faced him yet and the is one easy way to beat him use the pc the doesn't allow charge or dfa (i forget what it is called i think dust storm) and say good by to arnis

Yeah, I have no idea why Arnis is on that list, he'll get absolutely molested by Alpha/Kerensky/IT every time. He can't charge because of Kerensky's special power, he can't end in base with Alpha because a 12 IT attack can't miss him, and his AO range is less than Alpha's base range so he'll never get in the first shot. The others all have some potential, but the Bounty Hunter & Chikako are point-intensive and/or have other weaknesses (the Bounty Hunter is really quite a bit more expensive than Alpha and has no armor special, leaving it overly vulnerable to Alpha's support, and its AO range is only 16" so it can't really hope to get the first shot in; Chikako is about the same cost w/o a gear card, and has a worse heat dial, and similarly lacks an armor special). The Duke is an interesting case. Basically you have to run the Duke into base with Alpha early and hope she fails to hit a 12 IT (and she's more likely to land that shot than she is to miss it). If Alpha misses, the Duke can put it away, unless of course there are mortar templates threatening him (and there may well be). If Alpha hits, she's pretty much put the Duke away, even if there is a 2-damage artillery template threatening her (and there may well be). Granted, I might be missing something (there's a nod to the point I think Freak was trying to make), but as near as I can tell there's no way the Duke can beat Alpha consistently (as in >=50% of the time). The Duke's heat dial, damage output. range, and damage SE are all significantly worse than Alpha's, so he's not a generally better piece either (note that Kerensky's power effectively gives Alpha the most important component of Agility). His faction icon gives him access to some interesting pride & alliance cards, but I doubt any of them will give him an edge over Alpha/Kerensky.

When I made the list, I didn't assume people would be putting Kerensky in Alpha, since Adam Stark's the better pilot for the 'Mech. Alternately, facing Kerensky/Alpha, I'd probably fall back on either the ubiquitous Kelswa-drop, or DF ATVs-Donars. And as always basing Alpha makes it two harder to hit you, while only one harder to hit her. With her already-low defense, that that benefits you greatly.

Gosh, just adamantly refusing to hear any alternate opinions, huh? I actually thought Freakboy's analysis of Chikako vs. Alpha was right on. Furthermore, the argument further stacks up in Chikako's favor when you factor in one dealbreaker SE -- Streaks. Chikako will be getting the first strike on Alpha, more'n likely. The wise Chikako player will be saving his Perfect Day for his battle against Alpha, and then lay down blocking terrain in such a fashion as to be advantageous when taking on the ridiculously long-ranged 'Mech (RLRM?). Chikako's stat stability, plus the fact that he picks up IT down the dial make him a fantastic piece for battling Milagro OR Alpha, and he's still a cheap enough Assault-class bugger that you can support him reasonably well.

You give me a choice between Alpha and Chikako in a heads-up fight, I'll take Chikako every time.

1 thing I realized in this thread, alpha is good but not the best a lot of alternatives are out there every mech has its own plus and minuses, there is always the factor of dice , player usage, PC cards used terrain placement.

As for chiako heads up with alpha?, I'd say alpha has a chance to win this one. She can run around in circles and base chikako at the right time and at the right situation. Chikako has to vent on the 2nd heat ALpha can still push 1 more besides a quad can't spin and close combat dmg of 1:) All alpha has to do is dance around and take pot shots till it hits, just like boxing a longer reach has the advantage plus a high ATK value can hit its mark. But as for discussion wise chikako is 260+ pnts, Alpha is 229pts, put streaks gear on alpha and she is equally point costed against chikako now that is interesting:)

Ad oh adam stark on alpha? I'd say nay, kerensky is best with alpha not adam, with adam stark you become charge bait really, who wouldn't be afraid f trying to charge you when they know that if it hits you take ALL dmg not half, see my point?

alpha+stark=223 (cheap but chargeable, so what if you got 22 def, a charge is a charge plain and simple)

alpha+kerensky=229 (6 pts? Is that so much of a big difference? Nerfs would be chargemonkeys? expensive? I dnt think so, 1 def value lower.. so what at least the ability she brings with here extends her life more than nothing, limits the enemies options in dealing with her)

just my .02

Gosh, just adamantly refusing to hear other opinions, aren't we Trevor? I'm not unwilling to entertain an argument that makes sense to me, but when a dude goes on and on with a supposedly in-depth analysis specifically to prove me wrong, I don't feel I'm unjustified in pointing out the failings of that analysis. You didn't counter my point about how actually the Alpha player will do something different on Alpha's second attack than Freakboy claims, you just diismiss me with a flip comment and (more importantly) don't bother to answer my argument. It's not that difficult of an argument to understand: Alpha's heat dial is straight-up better than Chikako's, therefore the wise Alpha player will recognize that and exploit it. Not to mention all the other factors I mentioned that weren't considered in Freak's analysis, such as Alpha's lower point cost and superior weight class and access to the alliance cards that will most help her (w/o paying an additional recruit cost, that is) and so on.

I see your point about Streaks, but I disagree; the Alpha player gets to place 2 terrain pieces as well, and Alpha (by virtue of its superior heat dial) is better equipped to dance than Chikako, so I don't think it's at all inevitable that Streaks will give Chikako the first shot. I'm not saying that dial length isn't a significant asset; I recognize that it is, but I don't think that dial length alone will save a unit from Alpha. That late-dial IT on Chikako is nice, but it's not real helpful in a situation where you're facing Alpha because Alpha's defense is low (unless the Alpha player adds Decoy, which by the way Chikako can't do because of Alpha's superior weight class). That Streak on Chikako is nice, but my experience with Streak has been that it's easy to overestimate the usefulness of that particular SE because your opponent almost has to screw up for a unit to be in range but have a blocked LOS. (Granted, it's easier to make those kinds of screw-ups in AoD, but I doubt that's your point.) Streak's certainly useful, but I don't see it as being broadly more useful than Alpha's AP even after they broke Decoy. (Of course, Streak can really help break up an MDFA setup. But we're not dealing with that particular situation here, any more than we're dealing with a situation where AP will help.) Streaks may help Chikako against Alpha (and Alpha's AP certainly won't help her against Chikako), but I'd hardly call the modest benefit they confer a "dealbreaker".

I can see how reasonable grown-ups like us can disagree about thinks like "just how useful are Streak and AP exactly" or "just how useful is a deep dial against Alpha" or "what do you think of the people over at WK who make the rules". I can also understand why you'd want to defend Chikako; it is a fine piece, and I'm not dissing it, it's certainly a worthy choice for a 'Mech, sharing the top tier with (roughly) 8 or so other AoD 'Mechs. I just think Alpha's at the top of that list, is all.

Trevor I don't know how you can agree with a scenario where 2 mechs sit in front of each other shooting and hitting every turn and who dies first loses. I've played a lot of games and have never seen something like that happen.

I must be missing something here:

In Chikako's simulated death-blow, as Alpha and it are standing at Chikako's 14" range, he AO's to hit Alpha. However, it seems that his movement (8) and his 8" range do not agree with this. While I completely agree that it is oversimplified and heavily flawed, this ALSO means that Alpha, in the end, would win... Chikako needs to move up, thereby taking more heat, and giving Alpha another shot.

This issue I can address. In the simulation, Alpha makes an AO to first strike Chikako. That puts both mechs at 16" from each other. On Chikako's turn it AO's Alpha moving in 5" on the AO to minimize Alpha's ability to just keep moving out of range. This puts the mechs at 11" appart. The place I made an error was when Alpha had the option of using its energy attack instead of its ballistic for one less damage but one more heat. At that point Chikako has to make a shutdown role which probability says he makes and then vents on his turn. Then Alpha could get in another shot but be in real heat trouble itself. Thus it would choose to vent as well. In essence it doesn't change much other than the mechs both vent a turn sooner. That and Chikako has one less damage.

Again, let me point out that this simulation is not ment to simulate real game situations. It is meant to compare Chikako to Alpha. I already said 3 times that if we do the analysis in a real army context that nothing will ever be proven because no matter what one of us says, there will always be a counter. Thus the only fair way to see if Alpha is better than any other mech is to just simulate a toe to toe battle. It is simplistic, but it isn't meant to simulate what happens in a game. It is meant to show that mechs can weather a first strike from alpha (the central point to most arguments for Alpha being the best ever) and still beat it. You can say what if til you are blue in the face. This simulation is designed to remove that element. Again for the third time I point out that the title of the thread is that Alpha is the best mech EVER. That means that it doesn't matter how much it costs because it is better than any mech at any cost. Thus it is open to comparison to any combo I can think of without regard to cost. If a combo I can think of can beat it, then it isn't the best.

I don't know what is so hard about this. You would think I told a bunch of right wing fundamentalists that there isn't a God and pointed out that metaphysics have no basis in scientific fact. Anyway as I said, There are combos that will kick Alphas tail. Do they cost more? Some of them do yes. That isn't what the thread asks though. It doesn't say Alpha is the best mech for its cost. It says the best mech EVER. So if that is true it should be able to stand up to any mech of any cost and kick their butts right? It can't do that, so the original premise is false. This is middle school debate stuff guys. Any time a person makes a superlative argument without conditions then they had better be 100% totally sure they are right, otherwise if even one exception can be found to their absolute, their entire argument is flawed.

Well I think what some of us are trying to contend (with various levels of eloquence) is that the point cost of a 'mech IS a factor when considering how good the 'mech is. It's like not considering Attack Value, or Movement. Without considering the point value, one cannot consider the Mangonel or the Xanthos. I think the best road to a fair and fool-proof comparison is to consider these costs as another, and equally important statistic on a 'mech's dial.

Freakboy, I am beginning to now see where you're coming from a bit more--sorry for my earlier comments...