That's what Modern is for, isn't it?

Kinda. Silver exists for largely the same reason. But clearly the group mind here wants the ban, not "wait for Frankie to rotate out." So we're talking banning.

ban BAMF!! I'm never gonna' let that die, ever.

But it's not being used on any team..it's used for any two plus teams. Faces of Doom was fine by me, Bat Signel, Signel Flare. Cards that hunted in team, by having that team in hand or on the field. Enemey takes away from team decks (As in Mono or Duel team) by pushing decks that splash many teams in one deck. Yes Enemy can help duel team to a point, but unlike the rest of the search cards, there is no need to team anything up. (Brave and the Bold, you can use Batsignel to get a Titan after the team up.)

Dont let it die! ! ! ! !

Hold onto the dream! ! !

Cos dude that card is so wrong.

It is wrong on so many levels

True, but I quit playing brave and the bold because i could never hit a stinking team up. :)

I don't doubt that enemy allows for some craziness in decks, I just don't think that it allows for broken craziness. It allows you to use characters to fight against certain different dominant decks. I think it's a good thing. The problem has occurred because the KO pile has turned into an extension of your deck and hand. If revenge squad was any good, then phantom zone would be the best card in the game. But they are not. So enemy gives you a better option of teaming them up with someone to be able to shut people down.

I think enemy is abused, but I do not think that the metagame is destroyed because of that card. It is the combination of everything else that makes enemy so powerful. Being able to discard a stranger to search for Frankie to exhaust to get stranger back to draw two cards is what enables enemy.

"The previous comments are strictly those of gator7870 and in no way represent the opinion of vsrealms or upper deck."

curious, what cards what you want to be banned? whats your list?

Tattooed Man, The Source, Planet Weapon, and Ahmed. Duh.

Frankly, I don't think I can say. I think there are many, many more problems than Frankie. If everyone feels she should go, including the people building these degenerate decks and not just the people losing to them, then it's an easy decision based on the information we have.

Putting it another way, I cannot think of a pro who's said anything but, "Ban Frankie." I've seen people who aren't pros lose to her (such as chdb) and say, "Ban her." Who's defended her? Almost no one. When both sides are calling for her ban, I think it's a no-brainer.

Other cards, such as Enemy, are often not reviled by pros, but people who lose to decks that use Enemy, or those who feel flavor is ruined (BoyOfSteel) by Enemy. In these cases, I do not support a ban, because it's a personal preference.

If I had to compile a list of cards to be banned today, Frankie would be only one, with other cards (pretty much any that has been mentioned in this thread) on a watch list, and would be the first place I would have R&D start testing cards with each new set.

Now, part of the problem I mentioned early on is that we do not have all the information. Marvel Team Up is being printed, and likely DC's next set is finished, and the Legends sets are close to finished (because they've been officially solicited). So UDE is considering a pool of cards we haven't seen, and maybe there's some reason that Frankie shouldn't be banned based on those cards. I can't imagine that, but these "watch list" cards very possibly are no longer worthy of note when these future sets come out.

However, I do not believe that is the case (that is, I don't think equalizer cards are going to be released).



As I said first, I think that VS has a number of problems that won't be solved by a simple ban on Frankie (or even the other cards mentioned in this thread). I do not think the game has that magic it had when Origins was released. I think that UDE has made many mistakes regarding the game, from having weak famous characters to complex combat to large numbers to curve reliance to no standard set to teams.


Spider-Man and Batman aren't the top decks, and there's no reason for that. Combat is so complicated that it takes many minutes to think through the myriad possibilities. It shouldn't be simplistic, but the number game makes it so. A game jumps from 3/2s to 9/9s quickly, so much more math is involved than Magic, where a 9/9 will be out against your opponent's three 2/2s. Combat is completely reliant on this curve structure, meaning that missing a drop is a death sentence. There are entirely too many teams, with new ones coming out all the time (Legends seems to change this) and a complete overlooking of older teams that could have additions; and the added difficulty of not HAVING anyone to add to a team that is complete.

Lastly, because of the focus on characters, THEY are required to have all the best effects. In Magic, Instants and Sorceries can have powerful "draw card" effects, because everything is a spell you (the mage) is casting. It's a marvellous system. In VS, if you want "Wrath of God" or "Ancestral Recall," it's much more game-like to put that effect on a character than a plot twist.

But to fix these problems, you'd need to overhaul the entire system, and thus ban everything. I don't see that in the realm of possibility, but

These are the king of threads that makes UDE never want to listen to us again.


But in all seriously, ban BAMF!, you can't even stun the guys back for god sake. Way to easy to get board advantage.

And its only the interaction between Frankie Ray and Phantom Stranger that needs to be banned/errata'd.

dude that was good, u get rep

Our game, like it or not, is an extremely search heavy game. Like it or not. If combo exists as you describe it (merely putting together 2+ cards to generate a more powerful effect), then it is naturally going to dominate over any streamlined strategy. You'll never miss your pieces. 6-7+ part combo pieces aren't out of the question. In my eyes, the only viable form of combo involves the combo deck setting up an environment from which to operate its combo - think Xavier's Dream or Qward here.

As for throwing out the baby with the bathwater, I would like to err on the side of banning too many cards. Other games have had disastrous effects after trying to beat around the bush and only ban part of the card. In Magic, Mana Vault and Dark Ritual were banned, allowing necropotence free reign for another season. Likewise, only Skullclamp was banned, leaving the rest of affinity to decimate multiple formats for another year. When they finally banned the entire affinity deck basically (8 cards), Magic had a very strong regionals/nationals season. Currently, we're on the heels of a singular banning that was intended to fix problems and diversify things. Today is the first day Dr Light is banned from competitive play, and we've been talking about how Light wasn't enough for a few days already.

The thing is, the cards I've mentioned are proven engine/combo enablers that effectively stifle UDEs ability to make interesting cards. Personally, I think both Talia and Punisher's Armory are interesting cards. Talia never saw play because she is revenge squad stamped while Punishers Armory has been used fairly a few times. Both of them coexisted for quite some time. However, the influx of search effects that are simply way too easy landed Talia on the banlist. As long as searching out everything is way too easy, we'll be back here every set after people have had a chance to test a little bit.

I don't particularly like these discussions, however necessary they may be. I'd much rather discuss how Ibis is basically the best 3-drop on the planet.

I appreciate everyone's input, as long as you don't say errata the cards or complain about how you use a card fairly and don't want it banned.

I realize this to be the case in regards to the "yin/yang" concept. If you're looking at Golden Age, there are cards available to combat the weenie hordes...but what generic cards exist within Silver Age and Modern that do such a thing?

I've compared MTG and Vs. on this point in the past when these discussions have come up. If MTG decided that they were going to push a theme within a block (Artifacts are a good example) then the appropriate hate was made available. In general, the hate cards wouldn't be regulated to one particular color... several different colors would get their own version of artifact kill. Sure, you have some teamstamped weenie hate in Silver (Spectral Slaughter), but what do the other teams/themes do to combat rush? Do you break down and splash Shadowpact just for the weenie hate?

I was pushing the "Wrath of God" effect as a generic "reset" button for the game. Perhaps turn 4 is too early in some people's eyes, I haven't worked through the math as it was only an idea. I was using the cost of Spectral Slaughter and Flame Trap as a guideline (but also discounting effects that lower threshold costs).

I know there has to be a balance to everything. The problem at this point is that rush is stronger than curve while curve is lacking the proper tools to level the playing field.

Am I interpreting this sentence correctly?

You appreciate input, unless it it

A) Says to Eratta a card rather than ban it

or

B) Says not to ban a card.

So basically, you appreciate all input except that says not to ban a card.

Maybe that was just poorly worded, or I'm reading it incorrectly.

Surely you jest...Frog Man is by far superior.

CC