Damage Value: Character damage (with modifiers + or -) before the dice roll.
Damage Dealt: Character damage (with modifiers + or -) after the dice roll.

The description of "THE HEROCLIX GLOSSARY " of teh rulebook says:

DAMAGE DEALT: The number of clicks an attacking character deals to a target.
DAMAGE VALUE: A number That Represents the number of clicks of damage a character can deal with a successful attack.


Damage Value is the potential value of damage, while the Damage Dealt is the actual damage caused by the attack. The problem comes when calculating the Damage Dealt.

DEALING DAMAGE
When an attack hits, the damage to the target Dealt is equal to the attacker's Damage Value, modified by any game effects.

We would then have the following equation:

Damage Dealt = Damage Value + or - Modifiers

Here is the problem, apparently it is understood that the Damage Value is the value with modifiers applied, not the original value of the character, that's why the critical hit modifier is applied to the Damage value and modified what I think is a mistake, because mathematically, X+1+2 = X+3, even that modifiers apply at different times, the rule of three, is being applied wrongly here. And apparently, not really taken into account when making the dice roll.

An example of this would be a character with an original damage (unmodified) 2, + 2 (perplex modifiers) holding a heavy object, the character's damage value would be 4, but at the time of the attack (the roll given out critical hit), the damage done would be 7 (damage Dealt = value + damage Modifiers), this would be the value of 4 (2 + 2) then modified at the time of the attack + 2 (Heavy object) + 1 (Critical Hit) = 7 Damage Dealt.

I think that is the wrong way to do the calculation, the correct way would be:

2 (Printed Value) + [2 (perplex modifiers) + 2 (Heavy object) + 1 (Critical Hit)] = 2 + [5], but since no value can be modifcado more than 3, Damage Dealt serious 2 + [3] = 5

2) THE RULE OF THREE
Whenever the sum of all modifiers applied to a single combat value is greater than +3 or less than -3, the sum of all modifiers is instead +3 or -3, respectively. All modifiers continue to apply to the combat value; only their sum is changed. This rule only applies to modifiers, not to replacement values. Replacement values can alter the printed combat value by more than 3 before any modifiers apply, with modifiers still limited to a net modification of 3 on the replaced value.

A Critical Hit is still considered as a modifier:

ROLLING 2 AND 12: CRITICAL CRITICAL HITS AND MISSES
If you roll a 12 on an attack roll, you hit the target Automatically, Regardless of what you needed to roll to hit. This is called a critical hit. A critical hit damage Increases Dealt by 1 to each target successfully hit.

THE HEROCLIX GLOSSARY
MODIFIER: A Number That Increases or Decreases to combat value, Dealt damage, or damage taken

If this is not correct, would cases like the above, or as follows:

Joker (N 09) Justice League:
Unpredictable Omnipotence: Before The Joker makes an attack roll, you may choose to declare a number from 1-6. If you do, and if the attack hits and the declared number comes up on either attack die, increase the damage dealt by 2 (maximum 2). If the declared number comes up on both dice, deal The Joker 2 unavoidable damage after the attack resolves

Printed Joker Damage Value = 3

3 + 3 (perplex modifiers) = 6, using the power "Unpredictable Omnipotence", choose six (6), and the dice roll a double six (critical hit), this would increase damage + 2 "Unpredictable Omnipotence" and +1 by Critical Hit

What would be 6 +2 +1 = 9 Damage Dealt

With all of the above, I mean that it seems the rule of three, does not really apply as it should be, since it is possible to further modify the total value (the damage), I think perhaps this was not the original intention of the rules designer, the difference between Damage Value and Damage Dealt, is mostly semantics, and so I think, the rule of three, only in name.

This should be in the rules forum.

IIRC a critical hit increases damage dealt it doesn't modify it, by game terms that means its not subject to the rule of 3.

Eh. Seems fine to me.

I think you're overthinking this.

You're correct.

This is because the rules for this game were designed poorly.

Instead of fixing the rules, the company decides to make addendums to the rules which causes these weird problems.

Also - I believe you should add knock-back damage into your calculation for fun. Makes even less sense.

This is where you seem to be mistaken.

Damage value is damage value. It can be modified, sure, but then those modifiers are subject to the rule of 3.

So if your character has a printed damage value of 4 on its dial, modifiers like Perplex, Ehancement, SHIELD TA (AKA: anything that says it modifies damage value) can modify that up to a total effective value of 7 or down to a total effective value of 1.

Once that damage value is calculated, only then do you move on to damage dealt. Damage dealt is determined using that final damage value plus whatever other modifiers to damage dealt might come in to play. What is a modifier to damage dealt? Most common example are damage reducing powers. Other game effects, like critical hits, can modify damage dealt, too, but you need to look specifically for the words "damage dealt" not "damage value" (modiifers to damage value are already done at this point). So, no, critical hits are not added to the damage value. Why? Because the rules say they increase damage dealt.

Damage value and damage dealt really are two different things. One helps make the other, but to say they are mathematically equivalent is false. That would be like saying a steak and beef stew are mathematically equivalent since beef stew can be made from a steak; they may be related, and one might even derive from the other, but they aren't even close to the same thing. And you certainly can't work backward from beef stew and have a steak for dinner.

(And, for the record, I know this is spinning off from that PW/critical hit thread. And I already quoted the entire damage dealt passage there. Did you not read it?)

Wow, seeing as you are obviously a better designer, where is your game

Snark, meet snark

Seriously, this doesn't help. He asked a legit question, tried to work it through and asked for confirmation

What is so hard to understand? Damage value is subject to Ro3, damage dealt is not

Yes it does, increasing something by a number is a modification

The issue is not what it is but what it modifies - it is damage value vs. damage dealt

There is no Ro3 on non combat values, and damage dealt is not a combat value

Short Version.

Damage Value can be modified, subject to the Rule of Three since it is a Combat Value. This becomes your Damage Dealt.

Damage Dealt can also be modified. This is not a Combat Value, so is not restricted by the RoT.


And this..

I think that is the wrong way to do the calculation, the correct way would be:

2 (Printed Value) + [2 (perplex modifiers) + 2 (Heavy object) + 1 (Critical Hit)] = 2 + [5], but since no value can be modifcado more than 3, Damage Dealt serious 2 + [3] = 5

... is incorrect. It would be more like:
(2+(2+2))+1 =/= 6+1 due to RoT, limited to (2+3)+1=6

You may not agree with it, but do you understand it?

The fact that the modifier from objects was changed from modifying damage dealt to modifying damage value is an indication the designers were fully aware of and intended for there to be a difference between the two.

That isn't quite accurate. You are adding the Object damage to Damage Dealt, but it adds to the Damage Value, per the rulebook on using objects (with my emphasis):

In your example above the Damage Dealt would only be 6. Damage Value would be 5, 2 (Base) + 3 (2 Perplex + 2 Heavy Object, limited to 3 by Rule of Three). Almost nothing adds directly to Damage Dealt now (Critical Hit Damage, certain Special Power effects like Non, Emperor Joker, Domino, etc.).

QFT!

I think this is a person fishing for followers to agree with how he sees the rule.

As normalview pointed out, the OP is conflating Damage Value and Damage Dealt. Specifically, his misunderstanding lies in Modifiers, as he mistakenly believes that Modifiers to Damage Dealt are actually modifiers to Damage Value. For the rest of my post, I'm going to use some abbreviations:

DD = Damage Dealt
DV = Damage Value
Mv = Modifiers to Damage Value
Md = Modifiers to Damage Dealt

Now, the OP incorrectly asserts that DD = DV + Modifiers.

In truth, DD = (DV + Mv) + Md.

However, Mv has a further stipulation-- if Mv > 3 then Mv = 3. This same stipulation does NOT, however, apply to Md.

So, our final algorithm is:

If Mv > 3 Then

DD = (DV + 3) + Md

Else If Mv < -3 Then

DD = (DV - 3) + Md

Else

DD = (DV + Mv) + Md

My example from the other thread uses Non from the Superman set. Non has a printed Damage Value of 4. Let's say two figures have each modified Non's DV by +1. Now, let's assume that Non is holding the Soda Machine, which adds 2 to Damage Value and 1 to Damage Dealt. Similarly, Non's own trait adds 1 to Damage Dealt when using an object in an attack. Let's also pretend that Non's attack is a Critical Hit (adding +1 to Damage Dealt), and finally let's assume the Ground Zero BFC is in play, and Non rolled a 6 (adding another 1 to Damage Dealt).

So, for those having trouble keeping track, here are our variables:

DV = 4
Mv = 4
Md = 4

Using our algorithm, above, we can now calculate DD. Since Mv > 3, we replace Mv with 3.

DD = (DV + 3) + Md = (4+3)+4 = 7+4 = 11

I know the damage dealt, it could be modify outside the rule of three, which seems illogical, is that the rule of three, is simply a rule that applies to a value (damage), and not the amount of actual damage, would be much easier (and logical) if the restriction will apply to the total value, I guess it's a way to override the rule, without actually cheating, just a matter of wordiness, how it works, and not I think my post, change anything, just emphasize that in my view, the rule is not what it should be. maybe in the Rulebook 2013, yhey changed the name to "the rule of four."

There's nothing illogical about it. Quite the contrary, it would be completely illogical for the Rule of Three to affect Damage Dealt, given the current wording. The Rule of Three affects modifiers to Combat Values. Damage Dealt is not a Combat Value. As such, the Rule of Three does not affect modifiers to Damage Dealt.

If the Rule of Three DID affect modifiers to Damage Dealt, Impervious would become a much worse power, since any successful attack which deals at least 4 Damage would always damage an Impervious character.

so true i spotted it from the lobby and only started reading this thread to confirm my suspicions and then he all but signed a confession half way htru the first paragraph.

but have some patience guys he is probably just having one of those days or weeks or months or...