You are currently viewing HCRealms.com, The Premier HeroClix Community, as a Guest. If you would like to participate in the community, please Register to join the discussion!
If you are having problems registering to an account, feel free to Contact Us.
Do other games have so many intractable rules issues?
I admit to not knowing every game that's out there. However, it does seem to me that Heroclix has an extraordinary amount of intractable rules issues, with wordings that seem like they were intended to make people not know how things work (like "can" = "must" and "defense powers" = "powers currently showing in your defense slot but not defense powers from other sources" vs "standard defense powers" = "standard defense powers from any source not just ones showing in your defense slot").
And then there are strange wordings and ambiguities that require rulings before you can even play the figures (like horde tokens and Copycat) when those rulings aren't even given to the players until weeks or months after the figure has been released.
And there are standing issues that we have been told will *never* be cleared up due to the unpopularity of certain game effects (I'm talking about Event Dials and how they interact with pretty much anything).
And badly worded powers that go against "intent" but aren't being changed just to punish Game Design! (I'm talking about Moon Knight.)
Do other games have *this* many issues?
I played Magic: The Gathering over a decade and a half ago, but it didn't seem nearly this bad. Everything was pretty clear cut. And even when there were rulings I didn't agree with (can't target Serra Angel with Maze of Ith because you can't untap her), they were pretty basic and straightforward (and later they said you *could* target Serra Angel with Maze of Ith, so that's a win win).
I lurk through forums about D&D 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder, and while there are occasional loopholes that lead to ridiculous power levels, at least there, you have DMs to say "No, you can't be Pun-Pun and conquer the universe at 1st level".
Are there any other games where the rules are as badly handled as Heroclix?
Heroclix has unfortunately never developed a value for standard verbage. Many games begin there and stick to it with unwavering loyalty. This is especially true of card games.
A part of this comes from how many ideas can comfortably fit into the rather open Clix system. And part of it just comes from an apathy toward that particular element of game design.
Games with good language consistency: Star Wars CCG (Decipher), VS System, X-Wing Miniatures, Pirates of the Spanish Main (see, WizKids is capable of it)
Games with poor language consistency, or problems communicating their rules: Dragonball Z/GT TCG, Overpower
I think it's a probable cause issue. The probable cause being exclusive prize figures and blind boosters generate a level of greed unbeknown to other games.
I think it's a probable cause issue. The probable cause being exclusive prize figures and blind boosters generate a level of greed unbeknown to other games.
Yes, because Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, and Vs System would never have blind product or exclusive product for winning an event....
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by jonidschultz
Dragon is correct. Dragon is always correct. Never argue with a Dragon.
Card games are hardly fair to compare, since usually they only have fewer possible outcomes of effects (as far as math, positioning, drawing, discarding, etc.). Miniatures games have much more going on per effect per instance.
Very few miniatures games have grown to have the ridiculous number of figures and effects HeroClix has.
All compounded, of course, by Wizkids refusal to adopt consistent language outside the core rules.
Star Wars Miniatures is no longer around, but that game had some clarifications and FAQ style issues. I don't think HeroClix is the only game that has these kinds of issues. It's a standard.
I think it's a probable cause issue. The probable cause being exclusive prize figures and blind boosters generate a level of greed unbeknown to other games.
Have you played some of those CCGs?!?
Greed is what it's all about in those tournaments!
Special exclusive cards, cash prizes, etc. Heroclix in comparison has some moderate priced pieces when you look at the history of some of those other games with rare pieces.
Not to mention when Wizard of the Coast brought all those stores to court for selling prize support.
I'm going to hit him really, really hard with a big green boxing glove............ I'm kidding. - Hal Jordan
Have you played some of those CCGs?!?
Greed is what it's all about in those tournaments!
Special exclusive cards, cash prizes, etc. Heroclix in comparison has some moderate priced pieces when you look at the history of some of those other games with rare pieces.
Not to mention when Wizard of the Coast brought all those stores to court for selling prize support.
THIS!!!! There is no such thing as a Professional Heroclix Player. There is sadly such a thing as a profession M;tG and Yu-Gi-Oh! player!!!
When a good set of the Power 9 can be sold for 10 - 30 THOUSAND dollars you quickly realize that M;tG should NEVER be compared to Heroclix. Period.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by jonidschultz
Dragon is correct. Dragon is always correct. Never argue with a Dragon.
I've never had a hard time understanding the rules. I think people read what they wanna hear n try to exploit everything to get cheap wins by bending the rules cause they're not good enough to win without doing so.
I've never had a hard time understanding the rules. I think people read what they wanna hear n try to exploit everything to get cheap wins by bending the rules cause they're not good enough to win without doing so.
Yes. Thank you for making it so simple
Sun Tzu Clan Leader
Quote : Originally Posted by Uberman
When a game hums along, full of action and excitement, it's a barnburner!
When it trudges forward glacially, bogged down by debates over ridiculous rules minutia, it's a Barnstable!
Heroclix has unfortunately never developed a value for standard verbage. Many games begin there and stick to it with unwavering loyalty. This is especially true of card games.
A part of this comes from how many ideas can comfortably fit into the rather open Clix system. And part of it just comes from an apathy toward that particular element of game design.
Above is a bottom line summary of the problem. Heroclix rule writing and game design has been far too relaxed on terminology definitions, and has been since day one. I remember bringing the subject up as a must fix issue in the Infinity Challenge days, and progress on the issue since consists of an equal number of steps forward and steps back.
But is HeroClix alone? Hardly. And is there anything inherent in HeroClix that makes the problem unsolvable? Of course not, arguments of its merging of CCG elements with miniatures game elements not withstanding. Several examples exist for both the problem case and the solution case.
And I'll give one for both - a certain monster mess of a game called Star Fleet Battles. In its early incarnations, the rules were a mess of exceptions and contradiction supplemented by a never ending series of errata. Over decades of evolution the game rules formed into something with almost no ambiguity - but in covering all rule cases the rulebooks (yes, books plural) became so massive that clarity quickly became lost in the scale. In effect, one problem (game situations unresolved by game rules) was traded for another (scope of game rules hampering players ability to gain rule familiarity).
Solving the first problem with the second is not a necessity. Solving ambiguity does not require pedantry. But it takes diligence in rule design and editing, and effort in play testing. Neither being something WizKids (in either incarnation) has shown much interest in, instead taking the "fix it after its been exposed by release" method so common in all manner of consumer product marketing. And given their sales, there is little incentive for them to change that model.