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ALLY OF HEROES: At the beginning of the game, choose Enhancement or Empower. Daredevil can use that power this game. A Heroes for Hire themed team may include Daredevil and is still a theme team.
Does the choice of Enhancement or Empower occur prior to the start of the game or at the beginning of the first turn? Would the choice trigger Darwin, Leech, or Prodigy?
GAME SETUP
Once players assemble their starting forces, the Beginning of the Game phase begins with several steps that must be followed in order.
The Steps are:
1. Reveal Starting Forces and Establish the First Player
2. Choose Map and Starting Areas
3. Place Characters and Other Game Elements
4. Resolve Beginning of the Game Triggered Effects
So far, no first turn has happened.
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Darwin: I CAN ADAPT SO MUCH FASTER THAN YOU: Whenever another character uses an effect that allows it choose one or more standard powers to use, after resolutions deal that character one unavoidable damage.
Darwin is on the map, so I would say his trait would trigger.
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Leech: LOCKDOWN: Whenever an opposing character would use an effect that allows it to choose standard powers to use, you may first choose a standard power. This turn, that character can't choose that standard power that you chose.
While Leech is on the map, the first turn hasn't yet started, so I don't think this text would trigger.
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Prodigy: KNOWLEDGE SPONGE: Once per turn, when an opposing character uses an effect that allows it to choose standard powers to use, you may choose a friendly character. Prodigy and the chosen character can use those standard powers until the end of your next turn.
Similar to Leech, the first turn hasn't started, so I don't believe this text would trigger.
These should all be asked to the WK Rules Forum to get official answers, but they're interesting questions.
STEP 4: RESOLVE BEGINNING OF GAME TRIGGERED EFFECTS Before the first player takes their first turn, both players resolve all effects that trigger “at the beginning of the game.”
Please quote the effects in question. The three characters mentioned have effects that all function differently.
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I CAN ADAPT SO MUCH FASTER THAN YOU: Whenever another character uses an effect that allows it choose one or more standard powers to use, after resolutions deal that character one unavoidable damage.
Darwin's effect will trigger and deal Daredevil 1 unavoidable damage.
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LOCKDOWN: Whenever an opposing character would use an effect that allows it to choose standard powers to use, you may first choose a standard power. This turn, that character can't choose that standard power that you chose.
Leech's effect will trigger, and they may choose a power. However, it ultimately does nothing to Daredevil, because it states "this turn", and the Beginning of the Game phase is before any turns.
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KNOWLEDGE SPONGE: Once per turn, when an opposing character uses an effect that allows it to choose standard powers to use, you may choose a friendly character. Prodigy and the chosen character can use those standard powers until the end of your next turn.
Prodigy's effect is limited to once per turn, therefore it will not be able to trigger at all during the BotG phase.
Last edited by Lantern Jordan 2814; 03/22/2018 at 13:05..
Wow, I would have thought that first turn immunity would prevent Darwin's damage, but it says:
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2) THE RULE OF FIRST TURN IMMUNITY After the Beginning of the Game phase and until each
player has finished their first turn, characters can’t be
moved, placed, damaged, or targeted by the effects of
opposing game elements unless they leave their starting
area (or in rare cases, starting square[s]).
I learn something new every time I read the rules book.
Yea this should probably be asked on WK Rules forum.
While the wording technically allows 1 unavoidable damage before First Turn Immunity kicks in, I have a hard time believing the intent of the design team was to create a piece that would deal unavoidable damage before the game actually starts (turn-wise).
And no, I don’t want to hear about GOTG Thanos. That’s a different situation altogether.
Yea this should probably be asked on WK Rules forum.
While the wording technically allows 1 unavoidable damage before First Turn Immunity kicks in, I have a hard time believing the intent of the design team was to create a piece that would deal unavoidable damage before the game actually starts (turn-wise).
And no, I don’t want to hear about GOTG Thanos. That’s a different situation altogether.
Darwin is just that fast.
Also, Tester is designed specifically to cause damage like that.
-Heroclix is not a game of logic, it's a game of strategy .... after all, when's the last time that you saw a giant (using a stealth ability) that was hiding behind a swingset... and nobody could SEE him????
Darwin is just that fast.
Also, Tester is designed specifically to cause damage like that.
Nice catch. I’ll (begrudgingly) give you that one.
However, points-wise, Ziran makes more sense to do that than a 35-point rare.
Its likely that I just wanna not have to suffer unavoidable when I don’t feel I should. That being said, I love him and the fact the he shuts down Jakeem.
(And I thought I hated genies after Kazaam. Little did I know how much more Jakeem would make me hate them...)
That's one thing I'll give credit to WK for... instead of banning game elements like Magic, they make hard counters for them when they find out how overpowered one is (as opposed to proper testing to prevent something from being so OP). Darwin reminds me of the various Authority members that each shut down one of the frequently abused mechanics (penetrating poison, friendly Mind Control, excessive stat boosts, etc)... I love how such a cheap (point and dollar value) figure counters such easily abused PAP figures, personally.
-Heroclix is not a game of logic, it's a game of strategy .... after all, when's the last time that you saw a giant (using a stealth ability) that was hiding behind a swingset... and nobody could SEE him????
1) Daredevil chooses Empower or Enhancement at the beginning of the game. Darwin triggers off that choice and Daredevil takes 1 unavoidable damage. However, once the choice has been made, it lasts throughout the entire game. Therefore, Daredevil won't take any further damage from Darwin during the game unless another game element forces you to choose a standard power for him to use. Correct?
2) There are certain characters who choose a power and that choice lasts "until you choose again." For example, Vision (CWSOP 3) has a Defense power that reads:
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DENSITY CONTROL: At the beginning of your turn, you may choose one to last until you choose again: Vision can use Super Senses and modifies his defense value by +1 or Vision can use Invulnerability and Super Strength.
Naturally, if Darwin is opposing Vision, if I make a choice at the beginning of my turn, Vision takes 1 unavoidable. But if, on the next turn, I don't make a choice (meaning my last choice stays in effect "until I choose again"), do I take another 1 unavoidable?
3) Bombshell Stargirl (HQ 36) has an Attack power that reads:
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STAFF: Incapacitate, Ranged Combat Expert, Telekinesis. When Stargirl uses one of the listed powers, after resolutions roll a d6 and add 1 to the result for each Bombshell token. If the result is 8 or higher, she may choose another listed power and use it as FREE this turn.
If Stargirl makes the roll and the result is 8 or higher, she can choose one of the listed powers to use as FREE this turn. However, she can already use the power, she is just choosing to use it as FREE rather than as a costed action. Does this trigger Darwin?
Questions 2 and 3 could apply just as easily to Leech and Prodigy as well. Do their powers trigger as a result of either scenario?
1) Daredevil chooses Empower or Enhancement at the beginning of the game. Darwin triggers off that choice and Daredevil takes 1 unavoidable damage. However, once the choice has been made, it lasts throughout the entire game. Therefore, Daredevil won't take any further damage from Darwin during the game unless another game element forces you to choose a standard power for him to use. Correct?
Correct. Darwin only triggers when you use an effect that tells you to make a choice. Daredevil only tells you to choose between those powers once.
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2) There are certain characters who choose a power and that choice lasts "until you choose again." Naturally, if Darwin is opposing Vision, if I make a choice at the beginning of my turn, Vision takes 1 unavoidable. But if, on the next turn, I don't make a choice (meaning my last choice stays in effect "until I choose again"), do I take another 1 unavoidable?
No. Much like the previous question, Darwin only triggers when you actually use the effect.
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3) If Stargirl makes the roll and the result is 8 or higher, she can choose one of the listed powers to use as FREE this turn. However, she can already use the power, she is just choosing to use it as FREE rather than as a costed action. Does this trigger Darwin?
Yes. Essentially, Stargirls power is letting you choose between gaining the use of a modified version of those standard powers. The power itself just uses shorthand by saying "another listed power" instead of writing it all out again. But you are still choosing between Incapacitate, Ranged Combat Expert, and Telekinesis.
I CAN ADAPT SO MUCH FASTER THAN YOU: Whenever another character uses an effect that allows it choose one or more standard powers to use, after resolutions deal that character one unavoidable damage.
Are you saying this applies to powers that you already 'can use', but have the option to use differently? Are you saying this would trigger it:
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Jean Grey can use Telekinesis. She can use it as a free action if she has no action tokens.
choosing between activating as Power or Free?
Also, if it's as you say "a modified version", would that not be excluded from "standard powers"?
Are you saying this applies to powers that you already 'can use', but have the option to use differently? Are you saying this would trigger it:
choosing between activating as Power or Free?
Also, if it's as you say "a modified version", would that not be excluded from "standard powers"?
That Jean Grey example isn't choosing a power to use. She can use a power and is choosing a manner to use it. So I don't see why it would trigger Darwin. With Stargirl, her power tells her to choose a standard power and then use it a certain way.
Are you saying this applies to powers that you already 'can use', but have the option to use differently? Are you saying this would trigger it:
choosing between activating as Power or Free?
Also, if it's as you say "a modified version", would that not be excluded from "standard powers"?
No, that's not what I'm saying, because that's an apples-to-oranges comparison.
It's entirely possible that Stargirl's effect isn't intended to trigger things like Darwin, and it needs to be clarified by WK's. But as written, it does. Her power is worded a little loosely, and the intent could go either way, but its clearly telling you to choose between those 3 powers, and then lets her use a modified version of them.
Nothing anywhere in Jean's power is telling you to choose a power. This isn't even apples-to-oranges comparison. At least an orange is a fruit.
This is an apples-to-school buses comparison. Don't try to argue a school bus is a fruit.
And an effect saying you can use a standard power in a modified way is still letting you use that standard power, so no, it would not somehow be excluded.
Here is some text from a recent answer regarding Darwin on the WIN that should help clear some of this up:
Quote : Originally Posted by WIN
In order for Darwin's effect to trigger, a character must use an effect that allows it to choose from a number of effects with one of those effects being or including a standard power. Note that Darwin's effect will trigger even if the chosen effect was not a standard power.
(for example, an effect states: "FREE: Choose one: Flight ability -or- Charge. This character can use the chosen effect until your next turn". If the character activated this action and chose the Flight ability, the character still used an effect that allowed it to choose a standard power, so it will trigger Darwin's effect)
Also note that the character must actually use the effect in order for Darwin's effect to trigger. If the effect is triggered and is optional and the character chooses nothing, then Darwin's effect will not trigger.
(for example, an effect states: "At the beginning of your turn, you may choose either Outwit or Perplex. This character can use the chosen power until your next turn". If the character chooses not to resolve the effect and does not choose either power, then Darwin's effect will not trigger)