After reading the new poll I realised we could give WK completely the wrong impression if we are not careful.

I have been collecting this game from day one and I still lack LE units from Dark Age, Fire for Effect etc. Do I think that makes me less likely to win? No.

What units are "essential" from Dark Age and Fire for Effect? I don't mean useful, I mean units without an effective substitute in later sets.

For example:
Hoverbikes (cheap, long dials, miles better than Miniguns)
Elite Clan Battle Armour (good mobility, long dial)
Veteran Kage Battle Armour (as Elite CBA)
Elite Kage (good mobility, armour piercing)
Veteran Fenrir (Reactive Armour, Armour Piercing)

And when was the last time you fielded one of them? For me it was Faction Wars! But that is by choice because I wanted to try out the newer stuff. I was just about to go back to Hoverbikes now Swordsworn have a storyline again (I usually play Pure faction with Mercenaries)

It would be interesting to see whether people really think pieces are necessary. I never field the same 'Mech more than twice. It is not a deliberate policy (except for Angus Drummond, where I have to hold back from using him) - it just worked out that way.

I would contend that "necessary" units are not the hyper-rare and hyper-expensive units everyone thinks. You can pick up multiple Veteran Fenrir for less than the new infantry. Hardly out of the reach of new players price-wise.

For fun, list any "uber" units you have never played competitively.

Myself I have NEVER competitively fielded the following:

Elite DI Schmitt
Veteran Maxim Mk2
any Donar (apart from the Elite one and that only once)
Elite Sniper
Elite Arrow IV
Bart Bradshaw
Veteran Legionnaire
Veteran SM1 Tank Destroyer

And I always field at least one 'Mech, yet I do manage to win.

What don't YOU field of the "must-have" pieces?

i've played with all of the uber units atleast once but not most of the time

What you play competitively is 100% dependant on the meta-game in your area.

If I wrote I could win competitively in my area with an army consisting of only Hauberks, it either means my competition is bad or I'm lying.

So please keep it to unit analysis, comments like I always win with at least one mech might impress the Juniors in your area but its just shameless self-promotion here.

Hoverbikes are "broken" units. Infantry should not have a break roll of 2+ for the life of their dial. Coupled with the highest movement rating for infantry and a point cost of 13/14/15. WizKids even realized this by first changing the capture rule then never releasing hoverbikes for other factions.

For comparisons sake, take a look at Fox Armored Cars. While they cost more then hoverbikes 18/19/21, their stats are weaker and their dials are technically shorter since they Salvage. Added to the fact they can be Charged/Rammed, there's no reason to ever use them over a hoverbike.

And this is the number one reason why set rotation is a good idea, since short of banning specific units from competitive play, IE. MTG Restricted/Banned List, WizKids will be fighting an uphill battle to get the Factions to any degree of comparative parity.

The units from DA and FFE that I find to be "essential" would have to include

Hoverbikes (fast base and breakers)
CBA (heat em up and shut em down)
Gnomes
Kages (Good mobility and can take a hit and survive)
Maxim (can transport a whole formation)
SRM Team (can formation hit anything)
Snipers
Caden Senn
Koshis
Janis Nova Cat
Mikel Nova Cat

Then again I do indeed play faction pure (plus Mercs) and tend to only play SC and Highlanders, so take it for what you will. When was the last time I played them? Monday (well at least the Gnomes, hoverbikes, Maxim, SRM Teams and Snipers)


I would rather have them ban specific units than whole sets, but maybe thats just me. :(

Sorry. What I meant was I have a peculiar taste in that I always field at least one 'Mech and I play Faction Pure. I also meant that I believe you can be competitive playing that way.

I am certainly not trying to claim I am of any particular standard. I would not even try and assert I was even average because we have such a small game scene round here I don't know what "average" is across the world.

Your point on Hoverbikes is sound. That is precisely what I am trying to establish. Why field any infantry other than a Spirit Cat hoverbikes (dial length 6) and Spirit Cat CBA (dial length 7)?

These are units with virtually no comparison in later sets. Other infantry cannot hold a candle to them. Maybe, just maybe, that makes them broken. Or maybe their strengths make up for weaknesses elsewhere in the faction... in which case breaking the tournament scene up into "faction pure" and "balanced sets" may make sense.

I just realised that if we look at what later sets look like then we begin to see what WK perhaps feel they did wrong in earlier sets. What has happened to units that fulfill similar roles to the units we saw in Dark Age and Fire for Effect?

No more 3-cap transports with hover (though there is a VTOL)

Mobile, flamer-equipped infantry given higher damage values and 2 targets to make them cost more (MUCH more)

No more hover infantry

No incredibly low attack, defense and damage "filler" infantry

No more 2-target, 2 damage anti-personnel unless range is MUCH shorter, making it harder to use against 'Mechs and vehicles

No more super-mobile 7 clicks of life infantry (instead some very immobile infantry with those features)

No more long-range armour piercing on units that are very mobile
No more Swordsworn 'Mechs worth fielding :) (joke)

Do you know, I may be coming around to this (shock, horror)!! Now if they can only fix those units you still need the imbalanced older units to beat ... and if they could stop introducing new unbalanced units in new sets ... then this could work! Did I say that? Ewch.

Of Weele's list this only KOs the hoverbikes, CBA, Kage, Maxim and SRM Teams. The rest are still viable (and probably would form part of a new base set).

My key units are quite diverse. Lets see:

SwordSworn
Infantry:
Fenrir BA antiperonell MASSIVE arc
Kage BA fast, mobile and has piercing
Towed Auto Cannon, it's just ballsy all around
Hazens Strikers when I play to capture
Hoverbikes, when I need a fast harraser with some balls to back it up

Tanks:
Sniper, it's accurate and can take a pounding before going down
Towed Anti-Aircraft Artillery, more cheese than anything, used to be able to damage a unit for 3 piercing. Still a good cheap croud control piece.
Ji100 to repair my artillery
J37 for repair and dropping my feared "Harcroft's Last Stand" which I call a TAC drop
Sprint Scout VTOL, it's fast, it's hard to hit and it does enough damage to keep my happy.
Balac VTOL I used to use this a lot, not anymore, but it's just a good key figure as it is.
Ion Murphy, by far my favorite artillery in the game, even more than Kenny Monster repairability, and does the damage that I need to harrass troops
Sortek, just love those babies

Mechs:
Diane Jamieson, monster at close range, good defence
Mining MechMK2 Can drop infantry and does up to 8 damage hand to hand.

Non Swordsworn
Katsu Moriyama - By far THE best light mech ever made *drool*

I know I have a lot of key figures, that just means my armies are diverse heh.

i always play old DA pieces. not because their competitive, but because they fit in my army and some of them are actually cost evective. the only reason why we even have 'broken' units like the hoverbikes is because any other similar units WK releases are rediculously priced! if the ATVs and such were atleast a little cheaper or they were a little better, there would be no reason to complain. and also, H hoverbikes aren't exactly what you would call the best units in the game. when ever i play them, the only thing i can end up using them for is harassers (and they're evective at that) because my opponents have FIGURED OUT HOW TO USE TACTICS TO FOIL THEM. if WK is to retire a set, they should atleast still let us use the units still for a little more than just unrestricted (for which the rules are still a little hazy to me) and venue supported events.
thank you for listening, i hope i wasn't a bother