a fellow GM for Classic Battletech pointed this out to me the other day after having a look at all three Marauder II's from the recent Counter Assault expansion. i set before you known fact. let us see who can spot the not

(Disclaimer: for the sake of argument, i am only going to present the weapons systems. targeting, armor, and speed are not at issue as they seem to be fairly well representive of the factions, and the equipment listed on the dossiers)

Classic Battletech notations:
S = Short range limit
M = Medium range limit
L = Long Range limit
MR = Minimum range

Spirit Cats: Declan Devalis - Marauder II

nifty little mech in the clicky tech. rather nasty in fight too..

MW-DA stats: Prime click.
Prime: 0-16 inches Energy two targets 4 clciks damage w/Pulse
Secondary: 0-12 inches Balistic one target 3 clicks. no SE's

what does this translate into for Classic Battletech?

acording to the dossier, Declan Devalis should have:
1 Blackwell Arms "thunderfist" Heavy Gauss <-- Lyran designed weapon
2 Magna Firestar ER PPC <-- magna is an Inner Sphere manufacturer
2 Diverse Optics ER Medium Lasers <-- Diverse Optics is also an innersphere Manufacturer

Rages for the heavy Gauss: S = 6 hexes, M = 13 hexes, L = 20 hexes, MR = 4 hexes (note: at long range, the heavy Gauss does only ten standard damage, at medium range 20 standard damage, and at short range it deals out a punishing 25 damage. all to a single location)

Ranges for the Inner Sphere ER PPC: S = 7 hexes, M = 14 hexes, L = 23 hexes, MR = 0 hexes
Ranges for the Inner Sphere Medium Laser: S = 4 hexes, M = 8 hexes, L = 12 hexes, MR = 0 hexes

Conclusion:

Anyone see any pulse lasers listed in there? all i see are a couple of ER PPC's. inner sphere ER PPC's at that...

Dragons Fury: Bounty Hunter - Marauder II

fairly solid mech, as any Marauder should be..

MW-DA stats: Prime Click
Primary: 0-12 inches, Balistic, two targets, 5 standard damage
Secondary: 0-12 inches, Energy, two targets, 3 damage w/Pulse

Classic Battletech translation:
1 Zeus Slingshot Gauss Rifle <-- Standard Inner Sphere Gauss.
2 Fusigon Model XI ER PPC <-- Inner Sphere ER PPC
2 Magna 400P Medium Pulse Laser <-- Inner Sphere

Inner Sphere Gauss rifle ranges: S = 7 hexes, M = 15 hexes, L = 22 hexes, MR = 2 hexes
Ranges for the Inner Sphere ER PPC: S = 7 hexes, M = 14 hexes, L = 23 hexes, MR = 0 hexes
Inner Sphere Medium Pulse Laser: S = 2 hexes, M = 4 hexes, L = 6 hexes, MR = o hexes

Conclusion:

evidently inner sphere medium pulse lasers can out range their larger and non-pulse cousins the ER PPC to do more damage.

House Liao: Sandra Sung - Marauder II

odd that this mech doesn't have any weapon SE's ..perhaos someone can use a little WizKids understanding to explain that minor mystery to me..

MW-DA Stats: Prime Click
Primary: 0-14 Balistic, two targets, 4 clicks no SE's
Secondary: 0-14 Energy, one target, 3 clicks no SE's

Classic Battletech translation:
2 Mildouglas "Emperor Bones" Series Gauss Riffles <-- Liao, need i say more?
1 Magna Firestar ER PPC <-- magna is an Inner Sphere manufacturer

Inner Sphere Gauss rifle ranges: S = 7 hexes, M = 15 hexes, L = 22 hexes, MR = 2 hexes
Ranges for the Inner Sphere ER PPC: S = 7 hexes, M = 14 hexes, L = 23 hexes, MR = 0 hexes

Conclusion:

two phreaking Gauss riffles, and no AP to show for it?? um.. i'm sorry.. i find that realy dificult to believe.

-
-
-
-

in summery? i think wizkids needs to go back to reading their own books... no wonder the Bounty hunter sucks.

Pulse SE does NOT represent Pulse Lasers, necessarily. It is an abstract represenation of being able to make two energy attacks in quick succession, such as firing one PPC and then firing the other.

mmm hmmm... now explain how it is that a standard Gaussrifle only rates a 12 inch range? and why a pair of said Gauss does not rate Armor Piercing?

Stats aren't just a representation of the machine, but also of the pilot. Bounty Hunter uses his weapons at shorter ranges and is more accurate because of it. Sandra Sung may hit often enough with her gauss rifles, but she isn't accurate enough to really deal damage to heavily armored opponents.

I prefer to think of the SEs as being connected more to the pilot. I mean, how many identical vehicles have different SEs and stats? The only difference would be whoever is the pilot.
AP could be seen as factoring in the pilot's skill with a weapon. It's all well and good having a Gauss Rifle, but if you can't hit where your opponent is weakest, then you are going to be causing little actual damage...

Armour Piercing, as I understood it, was to represent not accuracy of the attacks, but that they do enough damage that they can break through thick slabs of armour that are found on heavy and assault mechs. Gauss Rifles, by their nature, should always have Armour Piercing just because of the pure kinetic force(I one time did the calculation..and a gauss rifle shot, assumint it is traveling at just mach 3, the bare minimum of its describerd 'hypersonic' velocity, would have the kinetic energy of an Atlas charging at 100 KPH). The reason they do so little damage in CBT is because of this little thing called 'Game Balance'...no-one wants one weapon that can kill any mech in one hit, after all.<br>
<br>
As for the case of pulse lasers being an abstraction..that I can see. Just has Hardened and Heavy Armour more represents something have near max or max armour for its tonnage, in addition to things like Hardened Armour or Reinforced Internal Structure. ANd how MASC is generally represented by Evade. And a Shield is Represented by Agility.<br>
<br>
However, how about the Kodiaks with Jump Jets, but not having them on their dials? Also..do all the Marauder II's have Jump Jets? They should as that is a feature of the chassis. There is no way to abstract that away.

that was precisely the point i was atempting to make Shao.

a guass rifle doesn't do enough damage to deal out enough damage to rate armor piercing? buh? and to top it off, but the sirit cats has a -HEAVY- Gauss. those things are monsters in close quarters. you get hit withone, thats 25 damage (CBT) to a single location. period. en of disution. thats enough in some cases to out right eliminate a light mech... even a medium will fall under that if hit in the center torso..

so how does it -not- rate AP??

At the very least Wiz Kids should have given our Marauder II (Liao natch :) ) Jump Jet SE's. I mean come on that was 1 of the things that made the 100 ton Marauder II so cool it had a 3 hex jump range. How much more playable and desirable would Sandra Sung have been if they had given her Jump Jets like ALL Marauder II's were designed with.

the Liao Marauder also has Stealth Armor which is not represented in any way by the stats...

All the strange flukes in caliber and quality of equipment can, unfortunately, just be explained away to the different brands and makes of weapons each unit is outfitted with. In CBT everything was completely balanced and uniform no matter where or when it was made. In the Dark Age things are a bit more free form and medium laser A from factory X is stronger than med. laser B from factory Y but weaker than med. laser C from factory Z. This means that WK can write off almost any oddity in the combat dial stats just by saying it's either a different brand of weapon or the O5P got the config wrong when they compiled the dossier.

Edit: I should actually add, however, that despite the fact that I said "unfortunately," up there, I really think variable equipment qualities is a good idea for MW. I always disliked the uniformity of CBT materiel, thought it was unrealistic. I do, however, dislike the fact that this mentality might lead some of the WK designers to make sloppy stats for some units and not have to worry about the results.

It could be that Sung does not like to use Jump Jets. I can count how many times I've used jump jets in MW2, MW3, and MW4 on two hands. And that was for specific missions. Even if the mech I was using had them, I never used them.

and this odd why?
the geoff's mech should have JJ because it's on the cand thingy.
the some with Qutter.

When will people learn?

Wizkids doesn't care about fluff, this game's history, or logic.

Interesting analysis of weaponry. However, to allow increased diversity/playability of figures in the MWDA setting, the unit stats should not have to represent CBT concepts.
In 20 years when MWDA is long gone (may it live forever :D), whoever owns the Battletech rights can release the newest tabletop miniature game (utilizing chip-programmed, opponent-obscured unit stats, infra-red sensors for combat resolution, and randomized unit initiative for movement/attack) and correct all the inconsistencies generated in this Dark Age...

Interesting analysis, of course, you could also look at the Panthers (old ones, I haven't seen much in the new ones coming out with FP)... One has a PPC that is a balistic weapon doing AP damage where the other 2 have energy weapons... Or the strange 12" range Jump Jets on the 100 ton Liao mechs giving us Assault Mechs that are as fast as Locusts... :)