I've seen a number of posts stating that Charge and Bound will now have to be fixed under MK2.0. Charge, in particular, has been reduced to nearly useless compared to the greater movement that can be gained with Surge.

Wouldn't it make more sense for them (WK) to tweak Surge rather than Charge and Bound?

Let's compare Surge and Charge. When Charging, a figure may move half of it's "effective" speed, and then make an attack. I chose the term "effective" speed because Charge figures may actually move twice as fast as the speed on their dial. Surge, however, is better than Charge, allowing a figure to move it's full speed, and then attack. The only catch is that a Surging figure must take a click of damage before attacking. Naturally players will select Surge figures to minimize the effect of that single click. Thus you actually gain a Charge-like ability that can move further, and inflict damage, with little actual effect on the figures. (Werewolves, for example, may improve when they Surge.)

Another effect that Surge has, is the negation of short ranges. A lot of figures have a speed of 10 or more. However, a lot of figures have a range of 10 or less. Why would we want to introduce an ability like Surge that reduces the usefulness of shorter ranged figures? If I want to use my 8" range, I'll have to select a target with a speed of 6 or less, otherwise I will get Surged.

It simply doesn't make sense to me that for a single click of damage, many, many figures now gain a Charge ability that is actually better than Charge itself, while simultaneously reducing the usefulness of a number of ranged figures. Wouldn't it make more sense for Surge and Charge to be identical, yet have Surge cause a click of damage?

I feel that when using Surge, a figure should be limited to HALF it's move, then it takes a click of damage, then it may attack.

Hope this helps...

Nope... I like surge as it is because it helps a lot of the more numerous melee figs that we don't see get played anymore....

range role now is partly support... to shoot down those figs that do Surge and come within shooting range.... Mounted figs help immensely when it comes to this role :) ...

Yes, lets "fix" surge, lets make it so you never ever use those figures again that wizkids is trying to bring back. Good idea.

While we'er at it lets fix double time to only allow you to move your speed and a half, cause moving double is too much cause it takes away from charge and bound too. Yeah, sounds good to me, thanks for opening my eyes Teloric

PS: This is not a Flame this is extreme sarcasam, which is aimed towards people who more than liekly did not playtest 2.0 with the full rules that are being released in November.

uhhhh I agree with Teloric on this.... fells charging 14 inches over walls and figures... not pleasent. the surge rule wont make that many figures more viable, just the figures with high movement and/or deep dials while making almost all charge and short ranged figures obsolete. thing is even if they only let figures surge for half they're movment charge still wont be very good because your only moving 6 or 7 inches without taking a click for double time (no double move for charges if some of the readers didn't know).

not happy about the changes to charge :mad:

Bloody heck. Most of us haven't even played and were already griping.

Wow.. someone asks a question and someone else feels it is their right to step on the question asker!

I am completely undecided in the matter. There is no doubt that charge and bound figures will, for the most part, disappear - almost no matter how WK words it. The fact that a 12 point shade is now going to be able to base anything 24" away means that big bounders are done for. Probably charge figures as well.

Is this a bad thing? I'm sure that players who have been hoarding KImounts and the LE KI mounts (which have gone for a pretty penny due to their rarity and usefullness) probably won't be too happy.

As for me, I don't really care about my Bakus and Theronody losing effectiveness. I am much more concerned about my Khamsin Snipers losing effectiveness, because even at their best they are not overplayed.

It would be better if you couldnt use surge with flight and/or other movement abilities (aqua, etc) so that you could hide from surge...

*shudders at OoU flying over his mages and surging for a sneak attack*

Not the Fells surging thing again...:mad:

Surge works. It gives all figures the chance to firststrike, and I helps take care of a lot of the cheese we have nowadays. Just remember that all current ranged figures can Surge as well. That means after mean ol' Fell Reaper chargers BP Boomer Number 1, BP Boomer number 2 and 3 can surge him.

And we also don't know what crazy new rules Wizkids has for people with the Bow and Wand attack symbol, and what new SAs will make ranged combat more effective.

And don't forget Domain Cards, you don't want someone surging you from 10 inches away? Why not cover the battle field in hindering terrain?

All-in-all, all this fussing isn't worth much since we have know idea what kind of other rules are out there. All we know about is Surge, and that's why we are makeing a big deal about it.

I don't think Surge is going to be a problem. It is going to help lean the game into a more melee based enviroment, which it should be. Look at Braveheart and other medievil type movies. The majority of combat in histortical battles of the era MK takes place in were fought in close combat. The foot soldiers vastly outnumbered the archers. Plus, keep in mind that the click comes before the attack. This brings more sturdy figures into the game, whereas before the moajority of the figures used were quite glass-jawed, as in 1.0 the first click is all that really matters.

First off all movement special abilitys must be turned off before surgeing I belive so Fells cant "reapfall". Dont want people surging your units? pole arm them. Think short ranged units are worthless? MAKE him double time to base you (taking a click)... then but him with the same damage (with the old figs anyhow) that you whould do with a ranged attack anyway. knocking off at least one damage on even the steadyest of dials still giving you first strike and a free click and most likely a push.

I do have a problem with Surge. I agree that it allows alot of erstwhile unplayed figures to be played again, it brings back melee in a big way (which I personally like alot), it makes the game more mobile and there is alot more action as compared to the 1.0 rules. However, surge at full distance does seem like too much of a good thing

Part of the problem is that the point formula is now completely screwed. Ram has take a huge step forward and as the 2.0 rules stand, ram is costing much less that it should. As it is, the Charge SA is so useless it should be like Cursed, and reduce point cost instead of increasing it.

I play tested 2.0 today using the new figures in the demo set. The new rules rock! Surge makes range more or less redundant. Thunderblow is crazy! As I understand it, if the second attack is successful, the target takes an addtional full damage plus 1. Eg. if my Orc warbeast has printed 4 damage and the second attack hits, I deal a total of 4 (1st attack) + (4 + 1) (2nd attack). Total 9 damage. I was hit 4 times in a row, meaning I received 4+5+6+7=23 damage. Right.

ROFLMAO! Now you have the idea! Surge should be allowed in formations! THAT would make this into the melee powerhouse that people want.

But since surge will not be allowed in formation - it will resemble nothing like Braveheart. Instead this will resemble more like one of the Godzilla shows; the single BBA will stomp all the lil guys. Unfortunately - that is exactly what we have today in the game.

BTW - the archers in Braveheart are exactly what I want for my snipers - usefull when the all gather together and shoot at the same time; but not overpowering against a swarm of footsoldiers.

Im not sure if melee will get a big boost from surge. In order to surge you open your self up to opponents surges (as you have to move in range), take a click of damage, and then worry about everything else in there army hitting you/countersurging. seems like a bad position to be in to me.

Zyban - Surge doesn't force you to turn special abilities off. Fells can fly and then attack. Therefore... Yes, they will only do 3 damage and take one, but from 14" away? That's still pretty darn good. Also... There really aren't very many amazing PA units out there. If one unit has PA, we'll just target another.

Adlee - I agree with you in that the PCF is now in trouble... However, Ram isn't amazingly good. From what we have (Demo Rules) I'm not sure if Ram works with Surge, although I've been told that it does. It doesn't work with DT, though.
And Thunderblow only increases your damage by one for every further succesful hit, so the Orc Warbeast can deal up to 4 + 1 + 1 + 1 (Rule of 3) = 7. 8 on a critical hit for the first one. And that's if he keeps hitting.

Right now, I think that Charge and Bound are being totally wrecked, but not in the way most people think. The fact that a Scorpem Gunner can only move 5" now, or a KI Mounted/EL Unicorn/NS Nightmare 7"... It's stupid. They should be able to DT without taking a click of damage. Or at least be able to double their movement speed.

Aside from that... Surge looks interesting. I don't mind it as such, however, the destruction of the Charge ability to be WORSE than the built-in ability of every other Infantry or Mounted figure...

Charge/bound should work like dungeon, adding 4 instead of doubling the speed. It would be much more managable, yet allow old power figs and weaker chargers/bounders (Battle Queen, Scorpioms) to actually move.