A post in another thread claims that the SAC included in the 2.0 Starter does not include any definitions of SA that are only available on 1.0 figs.

At first I blew off the poster’s contention that it’s a slam on folks with 1.0 figs (or worse, a plot to phase them out). But… the more I’ve thought about it, the more it does seem bogus.

Mage Knight is a New Game. That point has been driven home over and over. The New Game, Mage Knight, by definition, includes the use of figs produced before the New Game’s release – this has also been stated again and again by WK. So, for the rules to be complete, ALL valid figures need to be included in the official rules. If they are not, how will anyone new know that my figs are indeed valid in the game?

Logically, my thought would extend to the rules as well. In other words, there should be a definition of an old fig’s dial in the Mage Knight rules. But, OK, there isn’t. I guess it’s easy to figure out how the fig relates, given the new figs only have additions to what’s on the old figs. Whatever… I’d given it no thought until now.

But the Special Abilities Card must be complete if old figs are going to integrate into competitions with new figs. Why? Simply because it’s not fair to both the new player (who has no way of knowing what he/she will potentially face), or the old player (who has to count on someone being around who Remembers The Old Way, but knows that they’ve been changed (!), and will accept the home-printed “SAC” he’s got) to not supply the complete set of rules with the New Game.

If Mage Knight really includes all the old figs, then there must be a COMPLETE set of rules supplied to new players, to people who buy the game. It’s that simple.

(I had assumed that the SAC given out in .pdf format was simply a scan of what was in the starter. If that turns out to be right, just delete this thread!)

Dude (and to all the other people raggin' about the SAC thing) it's most likely a simple ecomonic issue. They trimmed it down to six pages for a reason: the cant include another daunting 10 page book of just powers. I mean, everyone reading this can figure out where to get the other powers from,a nd if you don't, then youre probably new, and you wont miss the old powers anyways. I'd prefer to pay, like, 2 dollars less and print the expanded SAC on my own.

I mean I understand your point, but really.. you're fartin in the wind here.

This is the same pattern they followed when DC Hero Clix came out. DC had some new abilities, and they said DC was an "entry point" for new players. It allowed them to open a starter and not be confused by anything.

Don't blow a gasket. This is a marketing tool to pull in new players. You want new players don't you? I don't know a market from a farket, so I don't know if it is a good idea, but the last thing you should think is that it is a slam on old players. It also is not some embedded message that your old collection is worthless.

I saw this way back. 2 months ago I started talking about how 2.0 figs would not have pole arm, among several other abilities. That is because it wasn't on the 2.0 SAC and that followed the pattern from DC vs Marvel Hero Clix.

Just relax. 2.0 is here. Play it and have fun.

Do we need another conspiracy theory? The game will finally be released tomorrow after a very long last several months! Let's enjoy it and shelve the paranoia.

Wow....Ok normaly I woul dpass on this thread but let me just say a few things. Ok all you guys in the DHC do realize that the person you are talking to is Balduran II's father correct? Now I have turly enjoyed the fact that Balduran I has bene posting a lot recently. Got the chance ot meet him while in Portland and again this year at Origins. Stadn up intelligent man all the way around.

The guy has a been play War Games for a long time. Not just little prepainted CCG in the form of minatures but war games. there is a difference. So this is not some person "farting into the wind" or "conspiracy theory". The guy enjoys strategic thinking and know what he is talking about.

Ok plain and simple there are issues about about not having all the SAs on a card ready to go past a download and print. The idea is that the figures will slowly pass into the pass replaced totaly by the new product. Until then with our current SA card we have guys that can not read an SA card or a rule book. you have any idea how many times I had to explain terrain palcement at National? Nationals for crying out loud. Your playing in a National Championship Tournament and you have to be explained things like shakeoff, what a demo figure can and can not do, terrain placement, magic healing a captor and the list goes on. Now if people have a problem when eveyrthing is spelled out for them in a rule book and SA card then what happens when part of that SA card is gone?

Balduran I is correct that a complete card should be made availbale to everyone. Not everyone has internet access and not everyone spends as much time on the computer as we do. Personaly I do not like the idea of having to waste my time and ink printing up an SA card. Call me lazy or whatever but I think one should be provided.

Yes barrel, I am well aware of who Balduran I is. I, being at Origins and a clanmate of Baldy II, spoke with his dad quite a bit. He seemed like a great guy and I really liked him. Does that mean I'm not going to disagree with him from time to time? Not at all. When I got back from Origins and saw him posting again, I was as happy as anyone.

I realize most people don't spend nearly as much time on the 'net as me, or really most of us who post on the 'Realms. However, anyone's warlord should have a copy of the old ability card and should probably have a few extras to give to people. The fact that 'not everyone has internet access' doesn't really fly with me. Ask a friend to copy it or go to the library, or do it at school, wherever you can. Is it an inconvenience? For some people, of course. Is it something Wizkids is doing just to aggravate old players or whatever else? Please... Is it something that Wizkids is doing to show that 1.0 figures really aren't meant to be used? :rolleyes: is all I have to say.

Yeah, people at Nats were morons, in a lot of situations. And as you say, people apparently don't read the SA cards anyway, so why even bother printing them? People will get the old SA card one way or another.

D

Gamers:

"Mr Bayou" types wisdom. This is more of a glitch than anything, but I do see Balduran I's point of view. This will be a hassle and nothing more for the true gamers, end of debate.

The bit about morons at Nationals is quiiiiiiiite interesting. I figured they were all practically pros, but that does not seem to be the case. Also, I just recently discovered that gamers earned a spot to Nationals just by winning some tournament in April of 2003. That was quite a revelation!#!#! Apparently the "points" are not the end-all to this game as I once thought. (I apologize in advance if this is all common knowledge, but it WAS new to me.)

Ciao,

Mago-Azul

Good warlords will have th einformation on hand but some of the peopel who did not know terrain placement or other rules were Warlords also.

I am nto saying on has ot agree nor disagreee but he was not stating a conspiracy theory nor was he blowing a gasket in his post. He was stating for the figures to be truly intergrated into the new game an SA card should have been printed with the old abilities listed in a manner other than a PDF. There was a number of threads about people having problems with opening the PDF among other things. There is also the fact that depending on your provider and the type of connect as we all well know could cause another problem in acquiring the revised card. There is also the issue of some people's internet option have "blocks" on them prevent access to the site. Then you have the problem with though it was stated many times about the old SA there were people both on this site and the main site that believed forone reason or another that the old SA would not be allowed in the new game. Though they had access to the information they either could not find it or read it.

While the concept of no internet access may not "fly" with some it is a fact that some do not have nor do they have access to it at school all the time and they may also not have transportation to a place to gain access.

The comparsion to the DC/Marvel case is a bit different on a number of levels. First there may have been an agreement about in order to get the linceses. Now while one could either buy the DC starter or download the SA card there were still complaints about it not being on one card. DC & Marvel while both part of the HC line are seperate games. It was not until Indie clix came about were all the SA placed on one card. This again may be due to linceses and the fact that this was WK first chance to place all of the SA on one card.

Balduran I was not saying that the fact the SA card is incomplete means that 1.0 figures are not suppose ot be used. He never makes that statement though some jumped to that conclusion. His statement is just hat if the old figures are to be fully intergrated into the game WK should have produced a complete SA card. THere is an assumption being made that newer players will know to go in search of a different SA card. A new player walks into a store and buys a few 2.0 boosters. That player has no idea that the old boosters are from 1.0 and see they are on sale. He picks up some of the older boosters and sees colors in SA slots, different dials and the whole bit and has no clue what is going on. It hurts the learning curve and the new player. When Wkura first started he picked up MKD boosters. He had no clue that it was a different game. SO his first tournament he is using speed points to move and shoot along with activating all of his figures.

It is going to cause problems. They are problems that will be over come but it will cause problems.

I put this somewhere else also :p

hmmmm the Complete SA PDF on WK site has a "Tournament Legal - November 19, 2003" statement after it. Does this mean that WK will not post the SA card that comes in the starter box on their site? If not, is the SA card that comes with the box tournament legal?

I still have some original rebellion SA cards with the fun version of ML on them but we all know they are not tourney legal.

just something fun for all the rules lawyers :D

Thank you Dando. with the multipule changes to ML, a change to charge and bound before they every hit the table there is enough stuff floating around ( inserts in boosters) that can create a solid bit of confusion. Now maybe we have to wait until 2.1 ( that would be an unlimited release) to get a complete card but would it make any more sense then?

The next few months are going to bring about some very sticky things. SOme of those things will be from SAs both old and new. Some will come in the change of POV from WKS and a stage based turn and attack sequence is going to add some interesting issues.

I can understand the logic on both sides of this issue. There are pros and cons. For a totally new player, talking about old version and new version in one document might be confusing. It also might be cumbersome to deal with a 10 fold SAC.

I did not sit in the conference room at WK where all these issues were discussed, but some very smart gamers were there, and they made a decision.

I think all the information needed is easily available. Either the warlord or the venue should do what is needed to cover any gaps.

Obviously even if a complete discussion of the old dials, and old SA's were included, there would still be people at Nats that can't place terrain.

There is NO CHANCE that not including the full SAC for a all the 1.0 figures in the 2.0 starters was a matter of economics. If Wizkids had enough money to print 10 or so little file folders and the SAC card for Mechwarrior, they certainly could have printed full rules for Mage Knight.

Now...I have done enough ranting (was it me that you saw Balduran II?) and what Wizkids should do is something that I would have liked to have seen for awhile now. One nice hardbound (or softcover, I don't care) comprehensive rulebook that covered MK1.0, 2.0, Dungeons and Conquest. Add a little CD Rom with the terrain templates and other goodis, and put it on the shelf for $25.00 or something. I would grab that in an instant!

:)

My SA card is only 6 pages - and has none of the 1.0 only stuff like shockwave - flights - etc...

I will agree that the starter is for new players-

what will new players be facing - some old figs- sure but not initially. we have sealed marquees and sealed booster drafts to start out with. we will learn the game first then add the older 1.0 figs in later.

Plus look at it this way - if they release a new starter with a full SAC we can all shell out another $20 like we did when Pyramids came out. See- Its a business to make $$$

A shortened SAC, I guess i can live with that - but at least make the full pdf - not colored background - just makes us go buy more ink.

RobRob, I can't see paying $25 just for a rulebook and terrain templates especially since you can download the information or have someone do it for you. Those conquest packs had a comprehensive rulebook but people were buying those for the titans and bonus figure. If I recall correctly, I got mine for well under $25. Another thing to take into consideration is that the rules change and the FAQ becomes important. That is why web access is essential for keeping up with the latest rules and rulings. I prefer having the SAC on be web, this way I can be assured of receiving the latest information. As you know the wordings for special abilities change and having a printed 1.0 SAC can be a problem if you do not have the current wordings for the abilities. There is no confusion when you get the SAC from the web.

RobROb: YOu have the right idea that a comprehensive rulebook terrian templates should be created. The CD room is nice idea but I believe pages in the rear that can by photocopied would work just as well. Now while just having the rules is not enough for me personaly to pick up if it was built into a campaign source book then that is a different story. A campaign book also campaigns from the different time time periods and storylines of MK. They could revamp the old scenario clubs and storyline events to fit into 2.0.

A new player at some point in time is going to have to deal with a 10 fold SA card. We are not even talking about when they add new SAs to the game. This si going to be an ever growing thing. At somepoint we will no longer have a SA card but a small SA book. If the game is going to expand then it is going to happen. Now Rob Rob is right thay money is not an issue here. IF it was then they could have simplely printed the SA in the back of the rulebook. That way players would more often have both rulebook and SA card.