Moondragon vs. Birthing Chamber

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Moondragon vs. Birthing Chamber

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08/21/2006, 03:52

JinxM

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Moondragon vs. Birthing Chamber

New preview card is up on Metagame.
Her relevant text is:
"Cosmic: If you would draw a card for the first time in a phase, instead, draw two cards."

Birthing Chamber also has a replacement on it.
"Activate >>> If you control four or more characters, draw a card. If you control six or more characters, instead draw two cards, then discard a card."

Thinking about it, I've managed to confuse myself. I think it's the word "would" on Moondragon that is hurting my head.

It's looking for a situation before it happens, so if that situation is replaced, and thus never happened, is it still the first card you "would" draw? :p
I guess it's moot.. I can't see anyone ruling against drawing the extra card, but it just itches my brain in a weird way.

Such a convoluted path..
I activate Birthing Chamber.
- I have four or more characters so I draw a card.
- no wait, I have Moondragon so I draw two cards.
- no wait, I have 6 or more characters so I draw two cards and discard one.
- no wait, I have 6 or more characters and Moondragon so I draw 3 cards and discard one.
- ..but Moondragon can only replace once per phase... but the first never happened.. did it "would" happen? ..what? <head asplode> :)

(Psst.. Konami, there's a crash bug waiting to happen.)

08/21/2006, 04:35

RanmaSolo

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I think Moondragon lets you draw an extra anytime you draw a card for the first time. Including the draw two during the draw phase. Even that is merely two instances of "draw a card." Moondragon would have to refer to drawing "one card" I think to not get used when you draw more than one at once.

-Mike

08/21/2006, 04:43

im2close

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And just wondering, as her text says, first time in a phase. Can this happen:

It is turn six, I have four characters.
During build phase I activate Birthing Chamber to draw one card and with moonglow I get to draw another one, and then during the combat phase activate emma frost(6) and then trigger moonglow's effect again?

08/21/2006, 05:00

Itherial

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Quote : Originally Posted by ur2close

Every phase..So if you run (along with moondragon)6 Drop Zatana you can pay 3 in every phase to draw 2 cards per phase.

08/21/2006, 05:36

seanvalen

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Quote : Originally Posted by Itherial

Every phase..So if you run (along with moondragon)6 Drop Zatana you can pay 3 in every phase to draw 2 cards per phase.

ooooooh...i like that one! Thumbs up, soldier!

08/21/2006, 11:25

WebDev

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Quote

213.3c If a player is instructed to draw two or more cards simultaneously, those cards are drawn one at a time. If a modifier is revealing the top card of that player’s deck while this happens, all the drawn cards are revealed, not just the first drawn and the one still on top after all the draws.

Quote

513.5c If two modifiers try to replace the same event, the player who would be affected or who controls the object, card, or effect that would be affected by the event chooses how to order the replacement modifiers.

Example: Toad, Mortimer Toynbee reads, “If Toad would become stunned, instead, you may return him to his owner’s hand.” Kevlar Body Armor reads, “If equipped character would become stunned, instead, you may KO Kevlar Body Armor.” A player controls Toad with Kevlar Body Armor equipped. If Toad would become stunned, that player may choose which replacement modifier applies first.

Your scenario would be, you have Moondragon and birthing chamber and six or more characters in play.

You have not drawn this phase.

You activate Birthing Chamber, you would draw one card, but the replacement text on Birthing Chamber has you draw two cards instead. Also, Moondragon replaces your one draw with a draw of two. You get to choose how these are applied. This would happen in two ways.

First way:

You apply the Birthing Chamber replacement and you draw two cards.
Instead of drawing one card for the first draw Moondragon's effect replaces that draw with a draw of two. Then you draw the second (technically third) card of your Birthing Chamber draw. So you have drawn three cards total, then you discard one for birthing chamber.

Second way:

This is an interesting one. If you use Moondragon to replace the first draw that Birthing Chamber has you make then does Birthing Chamber replace one of those draws with its own effect? I'm going to say yes because draws always occur separately and the replacement for Birthing Chamber is acting on the "draw a card" text. So, you would end up with the same result for the second way of applying replacements, you draw three and discard one.

08/21/2006, 15:42

JinxM

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WebDev, in your second method there (which is, of course, the one that made my brain hurt in my original post), the only flaw is that I don't believe you can replace the same event twice.
Once it's replaced, the original event "never happened" (as the rules say) so you can't replace it again. (even though you're replacing it with essentially the same text.)

I believe now that if for some crazy reason a person chose the second method, they would only get two cards, not three and discard one. So obviously, everyone should choose the first method unless there's some hideous negative modifier for discarding in play. :)

I guess having the choice is always worth knowing about, because situations pop up where it may be important.

08/21/2006, 18:15

imported_CelestialBuu

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Injustice Gang Loves to play against Moondragon ^_^

08/21/2006, 19:26

WebDev

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It's possible that the second method doesn't really work since the replacement target for Birthing Chamber is the first effect it puts on the chain whereas Moondragon just replaces the first draw in the phase.

08/21/2006, 19:41

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boothwah

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Quote : Originally Posted by CelestialBuu

Injustice Gang Loves to play against Moondragon ^_^

OMG - Why are we even discussing this card anymore.? It gets pwned by a deck the makes up 0.25% of the field in silver age and just a bit less in Golden.

Game over, man.

08/21/2006, 19:57

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Merdle

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Moondragon isn't pwned by Injustice gang, she just helps you get pwned more easily. There is a difference.

08/21/2006, 21:07

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Kariggi

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And honestly who would even care about a deck that makes up .25% of the field. Now if it made up 25% it might be a genuine concern.

08/21/2006, 23:06

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boothwah

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Note to self: Use sarcasm tags in the future.

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