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I was thinking about the wording of Blades/Claws/Fangs and Mind Control (as you do), and a possible, weird technicality occurred to me. It’s another one of those interactions, where I hope it doesn’t work, because it’s certainly not supposed to work. Here are the powers:
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From the PAC, p. 1 and p. 2:
MIND CONTROL CLOSE/RANGE: Minimum range value 4. Make a close/range attack. Instead of normal damage, a hit character halves speed and becomes friendly to your force and may in either order: Move and/or make an attack. Then it reverts forces.
BLADES/CLAWS/FANGS When this character hits and would deal normal damage during a CLOSE action, you may roll a d6. If you do, deal damage equal to the result instead of normal damage. Minimum result is this character’s printed damage value -1.
Here is the scenario:
Character A has Mind Control.
Opposing character B has Blades/Claws/Fangs.
Opposing character C is friendly to B
A is adjacent to B, and uses Mind Control as a CLOSE action against B. A succeeds, and B is now friendly to A. Mind Control is still resolving.
B now makes an attack against C (range or close). This is an attack that would deal normal damage to C and it’s happening during the action that activated Mind Control (not after resolutions or anything like that). That action was a CLOSE action. Here’s the question:
Since B would deal normal damage during a CLOSE action (even if it’s not B’s CLOSE action), can B use Blades/Claws/Fangs against C?
I'd like to believe that, but, I just scoured the Rulebook, CRS, and WIN, and can't find anything that would justify it. It looks like this, probably unintended interaction, does work. I'd like to see if anyone can come up with how it doesn't.
I'd like to believe that, but, I just scoured the Rulebook, CRS, and WIN, and can't find anything that would justify it. It looks like this, probably unintended interaction, does work. I'd like to see if anyone can come up with how it doesn't.
Maybe someone will. Just understand that no judge worth their salt is going to allow this and anyone that is a judge will be doing their players a disservice by allowing it at the local level.
It doesn't work.
"I think it is very important to consider your venue a community and not a commodity." - tyroclix
Maybe someone will. Just understand that no judge worth their salt is going to allow this and anyone that is a judge will be doing their players a disservice by allowing it at the local level.
It doesn't work.
I agree that it shouldn’t work, but I think the current wording is flawed. It’s a pretty obscure corner case, though, so I get why you might not want to dissect the wording.
I agree that it shouldn’t work, but I think the current wording is flawed. It’s a pretty obscure corner case, though, so I get why you might not want to dissect the wording.
I just can't be bothered with this stuff anymore. Real nuance or interesting questions, sure. Stuff like this where anyone that's been around for a few months knows it's not how it works? Nah. Ask it on the WIN so they can tell you no, because I have better things to do with my time.
"I think it is very important to consider your venue a community and not a commodity." - tyroclix
The Idea that Mind control would have a different effect on a character when CLOSE verses RANGE is clearly not what WK is going for. I imagine the answer on WIN will be something super insightful like,
That is simply false. Nothing in the wording of Mind Control says that. I quoted it above, so feel free to check the wording.
The reason why most powers don’t work during Mind Control is because they require dedicated actions. For example, Exploit Weakness requires a CLOSE action, not a close attack like Mind Control allows.
It’s the same reason why so few powers work with Hypersonic Speed.
Some powers do work with Mind Control, however: A Mind Controlled character can still use Precision Strike and also Probability Control. Basically anything that doesn’t require a dedicated action to activate.
Edit: I misread what you said. Sorry about that. What you said is correct: You cannot activate other powers while you’re being Mind Controlled. But you can still use powers that don’t require dedicated actions.
That is simply false. Nothing in the wording of Mind Control says that. I quoted it above, so feel free to check the wording.
The reason why most powers don’t work during Mind Control is because they require dedicated actions. For example, Exploit Weakness requires a CLOSE action, not a close attack like Mind Control allows.
It’s the same reason why so few powers work with Hypersonic Speed.
Some powers do work with Mind Control, however: A Mind Controlled character can still use Precision Strike and also Probability Control. Basically anything that doesn’t require a dedicated action to activate.
Precision Strike doesn't require an activation because it's a power that's always active, Mind Control only permits CLOSE or RANGED attacks and B/C/F requires a Close Action. A CLOSE Attack is a subset of a CLOSE ACTION but, that's not what Mind Control allows it only allows for a CLOSE attack
Okay, we need to keep the terminology straight here:
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From the HeroClix Core Rulebook, p. 7:
ACTION TYPES
Giving an action is always optional. There are five different types of actions, and a power or ability always states the specific action type given to activate it.
MOVE actions always include an instruction to “move.”
CLOSE actions always include an instruction to “make a close attack,” with one exception.
RANGE actions always include an instruction to “make a range attack,” with one exception.
POWER (includes a variant called DOUBLE POWER)
FREE
Note that actions are written in UPPER CASE while the attacks they grant are written in lower case. There is no such thing as a “CLOSE attack”. Only CLOSE actions and close attacks.
Mind Control includes the instruction to make an attack. This can be either a close attack or a range attack. It is not a CLOSE or RANGE action.
With that said, I reread your previous post and realise you said “can’t activate powers”, which I mistook for the commen misconception that they “can’t use powers”. So I’m sorry about that.
You are correct that any power which requires a dedicated action to activate, cannot be used during Mind Control. Other powers work just fine, though there aren’t too many that would be relevant to a Mind Controlled character.
However, Blades/Claws/Fangs is a little different. It doesn’t actually require a dedicated action to activate. Instead, it just requires the currently resolving action to be a CLOSE action. Any CLOSE action from the user will do.
I found a silly and clearly unintentional loophole in the language, where it doesn’t specify that the CLOSE has to be activated by the user, but that is obviously the intention, and I just wanted to point out the loophole as an interesting rules discussion topic. Also to gauge if people thought this was serious enough to require a rewrite from WizKids. It seems this is not the case.
Okay, we need to keep the terminology straight here:
Note that actions are written in UPPER CASE while the attacks they grant are written in lower case. There is no such thing as a “CLOSE attack”. Only CLOSE actions and close attacks.
Mind Control includes the instruction to make an attack. This can be either a close attack or a range attack. It is not a CLOSE or RANGE action.
With that said, I reread your previous post and realise you said “can’t activate powers”, which I mistook for the commen misconception that they “can’t use powers”. So I’m sorry about that.
You are correct that any power which requires a dedicated action to activate, cannot be used during Mind Control. Other powers work just fine, though there aren’t too many that would be relevant to a Mind Controlled character.
However, Blades/Claws/Fangs is a little different. It doesn’t actually require a dedicated action to activate. Instead, it just requires the currently resolving action to be a CLOSE action. Any CLOSE action from the user will do.
I found a silly and clearly unintentional loophole in the language, where it doesn’t specify that the CLOSE has to be activated by the user, but that is obviously the intention, and I just wanted to point out the loophole as an interesting rules discussion topic. Also to gauge if people thought this was serious enough to require a rewrite from WizKids. It seems this is not the case.
Mind Control doesn't grant a CLOSE or RANGED ACTION it grants a CLOSE or RANGED attack that's the point we're trying to get across.