And we contiually pointed out that we basing our rulings on solid documentation either in the original PAC/rules or in the errata! There was no ambiguity! You are the one that kept hammering away at it for no reason that any of us could determine.

And you know what? Just like that thread, I am done with this. You want to keep going, fine. Be my guest. I however have better things to do with my time than argue unambigous rulings with you.

Not quite done yet.

First off, hair10 said the answers he gave on the FAQ were not official and were his interpretation (I know at least one instance where he admitted he was wrong on the FAQ).

So you are saying whenever we use Superman Enemy or CSA we have to pretend there are colored squares?

You go on saying that Powers and TA's are not the same thing, but if a TA does nothing more than grant a power, how is it much different?

Because the symbol is always there? Then why shouldn't you be able to always use the power granted by it?

And its false to say a TA ability cannot be lost. If the TA requires more than one of the same team and the others get KO'd, doesn't the survivor lose the ability?

I personally want to hear the designer's opinion on this.

Independent of other inconsistencies in the definition of "power" and "ability" in the rules (or of the arguments presented in this thread), normalview pointed to a line in the definition of TA that says that TA cannot be countered. That pretty much puts the issue of this thread (multiple sources of Outwit for Bizarro and how they work) to rest.

Go ask him. Seriously. His screen name is Prophus here and on the WK boards. We want to help you in anyway we can.

It's different because not all TA grant powers. For TA's that grant powers (CSA and SE), the powers granted, thus implicitly the TA can be countered. These TA's are the exception to the rule. TA's can't be countered explicitly, but you can in some cases counter the effects that the TA grant.

Trust; if you could outwit a TA, Disbanded or Saboteur would have never been made.
Technically, a Team Ability isn't lost, the conditions to use it, however, are.

It's important to note that the fact that powers granted by TA's or feats can be Outwitted, the TA itself is not outwitted... not only for purposes mentioned above, but for the fact that certain feats (Brilliant Tactician, Fastball Special, etc.) rely on figures having the same TA to function. Outwitting Brainiac's Outwit, whether the Outwit that he has on his dial at the start or the Outwit granted by an adjacent Superman Enemy, doesn't turn off his TA. A Brilliant Tactician Lex Luthor can still use Perplex on him when he uses Perplex on someone else, and he can still throw Mongul on his Toughness clicks if he has Fastball Special assigned to him.

On a semi-related topic, this also applies to feats as well. Take, for example, KC Green Lantern with the Force Field feat assigned to him. You could Outwit the Toughness granted to him by the feat, OR you could outwit Telekinesis so he no longer qualifies for the feat and the Toughness disappears. However, if you were facing R Jean Grey with Force Field, you could Outwit the Toughness directly, but you'd have to Outwit both her ES/D and her Telekinesis if you wanted to keep her from using the feat at all.

So in conclusion, powers granted by Superman Enemy, CSA, or feats can all be Outwitted, but there's no way to directly Outwit the TA or the Feat itself. normalview is right.

Why not Disbanded? Don't you think the capability to counter all the TA on all opposing figures without LoF to any of your characters is a significant enough condition?

It's possible. But the environment that you keep hearing about "wildcard abuse" makes it seem like a wildcard team counter.

Still it does affect all characters in the game so it's balanced enough.

This (and kontrol's) interp of the rules is head and shoulders above "powers are the little colored squares on the dial", especially as I have yet to see a TA or Feat card draw a little colored square on one of my figures' dials (though that would be kewel). :cross-eye I assume, then that we are counting all the capabilities that TA give as powers, as well. Hence any of the capabilities granted by TA are counterable?

As long as they are specific powers, like Probability Control or Outwit. You cannot Outwit the ability granted by the Kabuki team, for example. Even though it and the Batman Ally team abilities simulate Stealth, they are NOT the Stealth power, so they cannot be Outwitted.

No, TA are not counterable.

Powers granted by TA (and Feats) are.

CSA TA grants the POWER Probability Control. Probablity Control can be Outwitted.

Batman Ally gives this: Any line of fire drawn to a Batman Ally team member that crosses hindering terrain, including hindering terrain in the square that the team member occupies, is treated as though it crosses blocking terrain.

While Batman Allie's and Stealths description is identical, Batman Ally does not say "Gives the Power Stealth" so you cannot counter it with outwit as it isn't a power, it's a team ability.

Kingdom Come gives: Whenever an opposing character given a move action, power action, or free action attempts to move from a square that is not adjacent to the Kingdom Come team member to a square adjacent to the Kingdom Come team member, roll one six-sided die before moving the opposing character,
even if it ignores the effects of characters on movement. On a result of 1 or 2, the opposing character cannot move to any square adjacent to the Kingdom Come team member that turn. This character and knocked back characters ignore this team ability.

Kingdom Come is not an ability that is also a power so it shouldn't even be argued that you could counter it, a unique team ability, with outwit as outwit only can counter POWERS. (Note: with one exception that is written in Outwits description.)

Outwit can counter powers and an ability to soar. It cannot counter Team Abilities because the description of Team abilities says so.

I hope not, though. Disbanded messes up a lot things other than abusive wildcard teams (like non-abusive wildcard teams ..?). Plus, there were probably better, more focused ways of dealing with a single problem like that.

BFC Strained Relationships

Characters with wildcard team abilities may only change the TA copied at the beginning of a non-free action.

That would seriously inhibit multi-wildcarding but only mildly affect teams that copy one or two TA or teams that aren't designed to flip TA nearly every action. Additionally, the low point figures that have no purpose other than a TA source (which are the hallmark of a WC abuse team) become more of a point burden to the team. A WC Spidey on a Defenders Doc Strange, Silver Surfer, and Hulk team wouldn't be affected by it at all.

Not a big fan of BFC in the first place, though...