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Second, I never suggested not needing the items I mentioned. What I suggested was that these elements would be easier for new players to reference if they were all in one centralized location. A comprehensive rules resource, a Definitive Guide to HeroClix for Beginners, something along those lines. I specifically mentioned Dungeons & Dragons and Pathfinder because of how critical it is to have a rulebook handy for those games. You can't play without your rulebook. But you don't need your Rulebook, your Monster-Killer Ability Card, your Pamphlet of Magic Spells, and your Inventory Sheet of All-The-Items-You-Could-Possibly-Own. It's all right there, in one book. One source of information for everything you need.
Finally, referencing the rules doesn't take away from the fun of the game, at least for me. The fun comes from getting to hang out with my friends a couple of nights a week when we wouldn't ordinarily get to hang out. But your implication that this isn't the "right game to be playing" for me or anyone else comes off as exclusionary and elitist. From all the information I've seen, people are scared that this game may be dying. Putting out a "HeroClix for Experienced Players Only" sign isn't a great way to grow the game.
You've got great all around points, and it's great to read a new player's perspective on this issue. Your troubles with ATAs as a whole are echoed by other new players that I know as well.
I also agree that there should be a "compendium" for heroclix that includes as much as possible (within reason) to play the game. If they believe this item won't sell well then they could couple it with a piece of some sort, like a new World's Finest or a Fantastic Four team dial. That would easily take care of the problem.
Just a couple of points. The whole "This is how we've always done it" argument is a weak one. We used to always hunt wooly mammoths and sabre-tooth tigers with sticks and rocks. We used to dust all our crops with DDT. We used to enjoy watching "Survivor." Then we figured out there were better ways of doing these things. We developed better weapons, and domesticated animals that wouldn't eat us alive if we didn't kill them fast enough. We discovered that dumping huge loads of toxic chemicals on plants we wanted to eat, especially if these chemicals were specifically intended to kill biological lifeforms, was a bad idea. We figured out that these people on this island were really just on vacation, there was no real danger, nothing in the way of true survival involved with the show, and turned our attentions to American Idol and the like. Just because something is done the way it has always been done does not mean it's the best way to do it.
My point wasn't that the game shouldn't change, but rather you knew all these things were part of the game before you started playing it. I find it strange that you would just start playing a new game that you find so badly put together. Especially considering you found the need to post a essay about how cumbersome it is for you to play. I am all for changing things to make it better for new players to pick up the game easier. It would probably have been a better use of page space instead of ranting about how you dislike all those things, to perhaps offer suggestions on how to improve them so playing the game isn't so difficult for you.
Quote : Originally Posted by FantasticEddie
Second, I never suggested not needing the items I mentioned. What I suggested was that these elements would be easier for new players to reference if they were all in one centralized location. A comprehensive rules resource, a Definitive Guide to HeroClix for Beginners, something along those lines. I specifically mentioned Dungeons & Dragons and Pathfinder because of how critical it is to have a rulebook handy for those games. You can't play without your rulebook. But you don't need your Rulebook, your Monster-Killer Ability Card, your Pamphlet of Magic Spells, and your Inventory Sheet of All-The-Items-You-Could-Possibly-Own. It's all right there, in one book. One source of information for everything you need.
To your point, not real sure how carrying around a giant book of rules is any better then having it in three parts. The amount of space taken up is the same, however with having it in three separate parts, you can very easily choose to have one smaller part out, while leaving the rest in your bag if you don't need it. Can't do that with a book, unless you want to tear out the pages. Now the point that others have made about having the TA and/or ATA printed directly on the card makes a lot of sense and would slim down on one of those pieces you find cumbersome to carry along with you.
Quote : Originally Posted by FantasticEddie
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Finally, referencing the rules doesn't take away from the fun of the game, at least for me. The fun comes from getting to hang out with my friends a couple of nights a week when we wouldn't ordinarily get to hang out. But your implication that this isn't the "right game to be playing" for me or anyone else comes off as exclusionary and elitist. From all the information I've seen, people are scared that this game may be dying. Putting out a "HeroClix for Experienced Players Only" sign isn't a great way to grow the game.
Sorry if I mistook your 4 paragraph list of complaints about the game for you not actually enjoying the game. The point is a valid one though. If the game is too complicated to learn and those complications take away from someone enjoying the game, then it only seems logical they should find something they do enjoy playing. That in no way says new players keep out.
You've got great all around points, and it's great to read a new player's perspective on this issue. Your troubles with ATAs as a whole are echoed by other new players that I know as well.
I also agree that there should be a "compendium" for heroclix that includes as much as possible (within reason) to play the game. If they believe this item won't sell well then they could couple it with a piece of some sort, like a new World's Finest or a Fantastic Four team dial. That would easily take care of the problem.
Not that I disagree with you, but if the item is truly needed, why would they need to package it with special figure to get it to sell?
Not that I disagree with you, but if the item is truly needed, why would they need to package it with special figure to get it to sell?
Long time players would be less inclined to purchase this item because of the obvious reason that they're used to the way things are now and most likely up to their elbows in PACs and rulebooks (maybe even printed off resources as well). A little extra marketing incentive to make the item more desirable to old and new players is never a bad thing. That's just smart business.
Be honest, unless there's new powers or a massive change in rules do you need another rulebook or PAC? Most likely not, but you get one anyways because it comes with a fast forces pack.
That's great. I'm glad you figured out how this addition to the character cards works. I'd expect nothing less from an experienced player.
But not everyone is an experienced player. Some are new to the game and face a steep learning curve. Placing a random ATA (yes, it's character related but there's other ATAs to choose for these characters, so it comes off as random) easily creates confusion for people who are just coming into the game.
On the other hand, placing regular TAs onto character cards would help to streamline the game and remind new players about TAs and what they do.
Except that I'm far from an experienced player. I'm a newer player and have absolutely no problem understanding that this ATA works EXACTLY like every other ATA in this game. You know how I know? Because nothing on the card contradicts any ATA rule. NOTHING. If you know what an ATA is, then you should know how this ATA works. Again, I agree that TAs should be somewhere other than online only, but putting ATAs on character cards is NOT hard to understand, and does absolutely NOTHING to hurt the game.
As a new player, I can say that when I saw the ATA printed on the back of the Absorbing Man/Titania Duo card, I was thoroughly lost. I've only been playing a month or so, and I only just today learned how a regular PnP ATA works. I checked the rulebook, and yeah, there's a section here about ATA usage. Five poorly worded sentences that start at the bottom of one page and run to the top of the next isn't exactly a great way to clarify a situation that is tricky.
I had to download an app to my phone to keep up with all the powers, team abilities, and all the other stuff that happens in this game. Having to check a Rulebook, a Player's Guide, a Print-and-Play section, a Powers and Abilities card, each individual figure's card, a Resource card, a Team Base card, and all the other things you have to look at during a game to get every rule right every time seems a bit cumbersome.
One key thing I love about Dungeons & Dragons or Pathfinder is that you have one source for all your information. HeroClix is a frustrating game to learn from this standpoint. "What does this dark blue square on my movement section of my dial mean?" Check the PAC. "What does this ATA do?" Check the ATA card from the PnP section online. "Got it, since I'm Asgardian, I get Willpower on my first click! How does this apply to my team?" Check the rulebook. "Do I have line of fire here?" What does the rulebook say? "What does this picture of Doctor Doom mean on my dial/card?" You'll need to look that up to see what it does. "Oh, it means I'm a Wild Card. What does that mean?" Back to the rulebook. "What about this orange area on the map?" Oh, that's a special rule that you have to read in orange text on the map itself.
Once HeroClix streamlines this process and puts ALL of this information in one place, it'll make it much easier to learn, in my opinion.
I'll agree that streamlining will help things for newer players, but take it from a fellow new player, a lot of the things you said here, you'll simply learn over time. You won't need to check the rules constantly after a couple of months.