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What i read there is : You play to win.
I don't know if it's what you try to say, but it's what i understand.
You even enjoy games more when you win, and it was tough / difficult to achieve.
I've never understood this distinction. Does anyone play the game NOT to win? I've never seen someone sit down at the table and (seriously) say, "Man, I totally hope I lose today." Playing the game INCLUDES the desire to win. Otherwise, we're just playing with dolls and tossing cubes around.
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I play to see little plastic heroes all around the board.
I play to see a dice roll completely reverse the ongoing of a game to the extreme.
I play to be thrilled by something unexpected, and i both enjoy a critical hit or miss when it's mine or my opponent's.
I enjoy disputed games, like you, but i enjoy them as much when i end winning them than when i end loosing them.
The fun part is playing, not winning.
These are all well and good, but you can't honestly tell me that, when you sit down to a game of Clix, you are not trying to win.
Nobody is saying the game is unenjoyable unless you win.
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Best games are when you win/lose 50% of the time. It's called balance. It can be alot funnier that winning everytime, because it's fun for everyone, and i'm empathically having fun when my opponent is.
I wholeheartedly disagree. That's not balance. That's randomness. Might as well just flip a coin.
The best games are those in which the more skilled player wins. The next best games are those in which the more skilled player has the advantage, but an element of randomness allows a chance for less skilled players. This is why games like Chess and Go have been played for centuries, and can earn professionals millions of dollars, while games like Roulette or Craps earn casinos billions.
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My problem with "passing" and "turtling" is mostly than i think there is nos fun in those moves. Sure, it's a viable tactic to win, but it's boring to death, and not comicbooky at all. One or two retreat moves to heal a character, or to make a sudden reversal in a tough situation : SURE ! That's great. Taking out a bystander then running all game : not fun. Winning sure... but boring.
This example gets tossed around quite a bit, but it's really not the best example. Games like this are quite rare, in the overall scheme of things. If I go to a tournament looking to win by a Bystander's worth of points, it's quite unlikely I'm going to win that tourney on points-- what are the odds that none of the other winners scored more than a Bystander? And it's certainly unlikely that I'll win Fellowship with such a strategy.
Now, if it's the final round of the tourney, and only my opponent and I are 2-0, and I don't think I have the team to really handle his force? Sure. Then I play a run-around game and hope to win on points. But that is a very unique situation, and hardly representative of the trend in HeroClix, as a whole.
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Of course i play in laid back venues and friendly home game most. Never in overly competitive tournaments like worlds. Of course... there is nothing wrong in those who enjoy overcompetitiveness, to each their own.
But i had to share.
I also play mostly in friendly home games, though my friends tend to be rather competitive, as well. But again, the discussion has been centered largely on Tournament play-- and even that, more toward high competition tourneys like Gen Con and Worlds.
That IS stalling. Nobody is talking about that, nor is anyone saying that is acceptible.
Yes they have. Also is that type of stalling legal? Because it sure seemed so last august. Evryone has a play style that is uniqure to them. I have my own.)Ou have yours..others have their own. Plain and simple. I don't have to agree with it so I'm just simply stating my opinion. Anytime a game comes to a die roll I think it should be questioned on how much stalling was involved. Same with passing. If passing happens two or three times in a row how is that not stalling? Is that not playing the game?
2nd place omaha midwest heroclix championship 2013 14th worlds 2012! Manthing of the THUNDERBOLTS CLAN!!!!!! 6th place Omaha 2014 springfling ROC superqualifier
Yes they have. Also is that type of stalling legal? Because it sure seemed so last august. Evryone has a play style that is uniqure to them. I have my own.)Ou have yours..others have their own. Plain and simple. I don't have to agree with it so I'm just simply stating my opinion. Anytime a game comes to a die roll I think it should be questioned on how much stalling was involved. Same with passing. If passing happens two or three times in a row how is that not stalling? Is that not playing the game?
No they haven't.
You described a situation where a person spent 5 minutes on a turn to do nothing but clear. Nobody has said that doing that is not stalling.
There's a world of difference between someone beginning his turn and promptly saying he's done and someone running five minutes off of the clock and then saying he's not doing anything.
Quote : Originally Posted by thanosstar
If your passing two or three times in a row your not even playing the game
If it was me doing it, then I would most certainly be playing the game. I'm just not playing the game how you would want me to play.
On the same token, if I am just sitting there, it is because I have some sort of tactical advantage in the spot where I am. If you are hanging back and not coming over to get me, then you are not playing how I would want you to play.
You described a situation where a person spent 5 minutes on a turn to do nothing but clear. Nobody has said that doing that is not stalling.
There's a world of difference between someone beginning his turn and promptly saying he's done and someone running five minutes off of the clock and then saying he's not doing anything.
If it was me doing it, then I would most certainly be playing the game. I'm just not playing the game how you would want me to play.
On the same token, if I am just sitting there, it is because I have some sort of tactical advantage in the spot where I am. If you are hanging back and not coming over to get me, then you are not playing how I would want you to play.
o i would come and get ya. i LIKE to actually play the game and attack regardless of whatever devious trap you have set
2nd place omaha midwest heroclix championship 2013 14th worlds 2012! Manthing of the THUNDERBOLTS CLAN!!!!!! 6th place Omaha 2014 springfling ROC superqualifier
I've never understood this distinction. Does anyone play the game NOT to win? I've never seen someone sit down at the table and (seriously) say, "Man, I totally hope I lose today." Playing the game INCLUDES the desire to win. Otherwise, we're just playing with dolls and tossing cubes around.
I hate to break it to you, but you are just playing with dolls and tossing cubes around. We all are.
I've never understood this distinction. Does anyone play the game NOT to win? I've never seen someone sit down at the table and (seriously) say, "Man, I totally hope I lose today." Playing the game INCLUDES the desire to win. Otherwise, we're just playing with dolls and tossing cubes around.
These are all well and good, but you can't honestly tell me that, when you sit down to a game of Clix, you are not trying to win.
Nobody is saying the game is unenjoyable unless you win.
I wholeheartedly disagree. That's not balance. That's randomness. Might as well just flip a coin.
The best games are those in which the more skilled player wins. The next best games are those in which the more skilled player has the advantage, but an element of randomness allows a chance for less skilled players. This is why games like Chess and Go have been played for centuries, and can earn professionals millions of dollars, while games like Roulette or Craps earn casinos billions.
This example gets tossed around quite a bit, but it's really not the best example. Games like this are quite rare, in the overall scheme of things. If I go to a tournament looking to win by a Bystander's worth of points, it's quite unlikely I'm going to win that tourney on points-- what are the odds that none of the other winners scored more than a Bystander? And it's certainly unlikely that I'll win Fellowship with such a strategy.
Now, if it's the final round of the tourney, and only my opponent and I are 2-0, and I don't think I have the team to really handle his force? Sure. Then I play a run-around game and hope to win on points. But that is a very unique situation, and hardly representative of the trend in HeroClix, as a whole.
I also play mostly in friendly home games, though my friends tend to be rather competitive, as well. But again, the discussion has been centered largely on Tournament play-- and even that, more toward high competition tourneys like Gen Con and Worlds.
sometimes i play to play. dont care if i win at times. its fun to me hanging with friends and playing a game i love. heck even when i do win i normally give away the prize. once again my own opinion stated.
2nd place omaha midwest heroclix championship 2013 14th worlds 2012! Manthing of the THUNDERBOLTS CLAN!!!!!! 6th place Omaha 2014 springfling ROC superqualifier
sometimes i play to play. dont care if i win at times. its fun to me hanging with friends and playing a game i love. heck even when i do win i normally give away the prize. once again my own opinion stated.
What does "play to play" mean? What is your goal when playing? Are you not attacking your opponent? Are you not trying to KO his figures? Are you not trying to keep your figures from being KO'ed?
Not caring if you win or lose AFTER the game does not mean you were not trying to win.
What does "play to play" mean? What is your goal when playing? Are you not attacking your opponent? Are you not trying to KO his figures? Are you not trying to keep your figures from being KO'ed?
Not caring if you win or lose AFTER the game does not mean you were not trying to win.
ok you really need to quit altering what people say to fit what you want it to mean. i do not care if i win or lose plain and simple at times. sometimes i play a new player and dont play as hard but still attack and everything i should. i dont hang back and play with myself or keep passing.
2nd place omaha midwest heroclix championship 2013 14th worlds 2012! Manthing of the THUNDERBOLTS CLAN!!!!!! 6th place Omaha 2014 springfling ROC superqualifier
I hate to break it to you, but you are just playing with dolls and tossing cubes around. We all are.
NOOOOO!
They're collectable miniatures!
they fetch big $$$ on Ebay!
I'm going to use the money I make selling all my IG prizes to put my kids thru college (as soon as I can find a woman who'll let me get her pregnant)
There's a reason that draws are debated in chess. Because draws prove nothing about the ability of either opponent. Plus, you can play for the draw in chess if you don't think you can win the game.
If you think a draw proves nothing about the ability of either opponent, you haven't studied much Chess. It takes a great deal of knowledge and tactical acumen to force a draw against a skilled opponent.
The reason draws are problematic in Chess is that there are far, far too many of them. As you mentioned, a player who does not feel he can win, or one who might be ahead on points in the tournament, will often play for a draw rather than trying to win the game.
How would that situation, brought over to HeroClix, help alleviate the problems being discussed in this thread? That wouldn't lead to people taking MORE risks in tournaments. It would lead to people playing safer bets, and falling back on Draws when they might otherwise lose a game.
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I can say that someone "isn't playing the game" when they run away because that is my opinion.
The problem is that your opinion is wrong.
This isn't a case of "apples are better than oranges," where differing opinions are of equal value. The opposing player IS playing the game, as defined by the game itself. You are attempting to change the definition of "playing the game" based on your opinion of their tactics.
I could just as easily claim that anyone who doesn't field Superman on their force is not playing the game. It's an absurd statement, which attempts to pigeonhole others into playing the game the way I want it to be played.
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Like I've stated before, the shot clock and game clock were added to Sports because they wanted to prevent teams from running out the clock on the game once they got the lead. Sports recognized that doing that wasn't good for the game so they found a way to address it. Play a HeroClix tourney and have the only way that you can win be that you have to eliminate your opponent in 50 minutes. It changes the play style significantly. Much like the shot clock in sports. It's a race to eliminate the opponent rather than a race to get up on points and then run away.
Forcing draws after 50 minutes is not the same as a Shot Clock. The Shot Clock puts time pressure on an opponent, but when the game's time is up, the team with more points still wins.
What you are suggesting is more like utilizing Chess Clocks for HeroClix, which I absolutely believe would make the game better, and alleviate many of the issues discussed in this thread. If you run out of your own allotted playtime, you lose. However, the simple fact of the matter is that Chess Clocks tend to be prohibitively expensive for most venues.
ok you really need to quit altering what people say to fit what you want it to mean. i do not care if i win or lose plain and simple at times. sometimes i play a new player and dont play as hard but still attack and everything i should. i dont hang back and play with myself or keep passing.
You may not care if you win or lose, but you are still playing with the aim to win. Or do you play and from time to time ask if you can attack your own figures? If you only try to attack your opponent's figures, then you are playing to win. The fact that the game forces this doesn't matter
There's a whole difference between bringing your A game and just playing to socialize and spend time with friends -- but in both cases, if you are playing the game, you are playing to win. All that matters is how much effort you are putting into achieving that goal.
Unless of course you frequently try to attack your own figures -- then I can see that as supporting your claim that you don't play to win.
ok you really need to quit altering what people say to fit what you want it to mean. i do not care if i win or lose plain and simple at times. sometimes i play a new player and dont play as hard but still attack and everything i should. i dont hang back and play with myself or keep passing.
I'm not altering what you say. I'm simply saying that playing the game is playing to win. That is not mutually exclusive with being indifferent to the result. A person can play to win, while still not caring if he wins or loses.