For crying out loud... even if they banned charging Arnis would still have a 22 defense against ranged attacks, the ability to move 20 inches for a single heat, agility, four energy and close combat damage a ten attack and an awesome heat dial for 160 points.

The BR Lego without charging would still do four damage with its ranged attack and 5 damage in close combat, infiltrate and move 10 with a good heat dial and be fully repairable for only 119 points.

The point is these Mechs would still be competive compared to other similarly priced Mechs they just wouldn't be the must have ubercheese they are now.

Second, the argument about you need charge as it is written now to stop tank drops is a straw man. Tank drop is just as broken and in need of fixing and one bad rule does not justify the need for second bad rule. All the problems with tank drop justify is the need to fix tank drop.

My personal take... reduce charge to printed speed and damage from charge to printed primary or melee damage.
The target must be in the charger's front arc when the charge begins. Heat from a charge is one, plus one additional if pushing (the rationale being that doing two things with one order builds up an extra point of heat just like pulse and rapid strike do) and damage taken by the attacker from a charge is one.

No current Mech could charge a Mech with a 14" range without first entering the firing range of its target the turn before and only a locust could charge a unit with 12" range from outside its firing range. In spite of this Arnis would STILL be good at charging since his 22 defense versus ranged attacks would keep him fairly safe from most ranged attacks until he is able to charge on the following turn.

Then in the same set of changes I'd simply change transport rules to state that units embarking or disembarking from a transport may only be given move orders on the same turn they enter or leave a transport. This allows the use of transported units to base opponents, but eliminates the ability to perform a tank drop without retaliation. Throw in the elimination of VTOL move and shoot and many units will suddenly be worth about what's printed on their bases.

Please don't make it so that charging is only 1x the Mech's movement.

The reason mechs even have charge is specifically to be able to outrange the enemy's ranged attack.

Why?

If you want to shoot at an enemy mech, you must first move into range (most likely within your target's range as well), risking getting shot at first, or having the target move out of range again. Thus you just wasted a turn.

Without the ability to move AND attack in this game, there would be no reason to be the aggressor in this game. It would boil down to players sitting around idle, as if this game had overwatch rules, since there's no incentive to risk moving into your opponent's range to let him get the first shot at you.

Charging must be far enough to outrange shooting, 1.5x movement could probably work.

Also having the defending mech being allowed a free shot at the charging mech would do the same as making it 1x movement, there's just no point then. You may as well just walk into firing range and let him take the shot at you next turn.

I think if we must change charge, the 1.5x movement is good enough. Possibly not giving the +1 damage (but brawling still gives +1) will work as well.

But nothing drastic is needed, charging is absolutely necessary in this game.

Not at all a simple question...

1. Charge is balanced internally, not externally. What I mean by this is that the mechanic is not at all a problem. It is the interplay of different units that makes it unbalanced. Mechs which out charge others are the ubermechs... Arnis, Bart, Liao Targe, Danni (her attack makes up for her range), BR Lego (almost... agility makes it so much less attractive). I find that I do not even look at a mech without agility or a minimum 22 defense.

2. If charge is nerfed, tank drop loses its natural enemy and ALL mechs would fall prey to it. It would probably keep mechs out of serious competitive play all over again (yes, even with 3/450). You cannot change charge very much without doing something about tank drop. Given the low defense of most transports, you could do something like give a bonus to defense of targets without los from chargers... that is, of course, until a new transport with decent movement and high defense is created (and there are a few at the moment which might even qualify). A unit with evade or hover would definitely clinch it (eg the merc Zahn or one of the SW Maxims could just about qualify).

3. I can think of very few changes to charge that would "unbreak" Arnis. I rarely charge and Arnis is sill far and away my favourite mech choice because of his amazing movement, his great heat dial, his immunity to return charge, his excellent defense, and his decent dial and rate of stat degradation.

4. Sometimes, within a game system, designers just get it a little wrong. No system is perfect. Some combination of stats or abilities or mechanics can just be too powerful. MTG et al have accepted the fact and just ban stuff. WK said that they would never do this. I am in two minds over this. As a consumer, I do not want to be unable to play some of my hard earned or found pieces to be unplayable. Given the desire for game balance overall, I can see the benfits of banning.

5. I think that, to keep the game fresh and interesting, WK should really consider "block rotations". It is not just a marketing tool. I know that, the more sets are released, the less and less I need to buy to remain competitive. I rely on my "tried and true" units and do not see the need to change unless the new stuff offers some advantage over the old. This gets pretty stale fast. If sets were rotated out of competitive play, it would force me to buy more but it would also force me to change things up. This is true for everyone and would keep the metagame changing. Casual players will still be able to play all their stuff and there could even be "unrestricted" or "Classic MWDA" events which would allow the use of units from older sets. It is just too hard to come up with new and interesting stuff that both keeps players interested and buying AND is not overpowered or broken. To be brutally honest, I think the game would have been better of with block rotation and without artillery and VTOLs...

6. Arnis may indeed lose a lot of his oomph. More middle level competitive players are going to play fatty mechs with big defenses. These guys can prove to be an obstacle to Arnis. To even think about charging, you are going to want to have rear arc. Arnis no longer becomes a "no brainer" like he is now. I think that the elite players will not be moved very much by the fatty mechs but it seems like most players who made it last year's worlds or are highly ranked seem to say that mechs are little, if at all, more playable under the new rules.

At this moment, I think any discussion about Arnis is premature. We will have to wait until any rules changes in the works do or do not appear.

Personally, I do not like to charge unless the risk is very low. If I let a player I consider to be of inferior skill get a charge against me that can critically disrupt my game plan (even if he needs to roll an 18 to do it) then I am not playing as well as I should. Overall I think charge is a good balance of reward vs risk and, most of all, of fun and a touch of luck. I want luck to be minimised but I do not want to play chess or go. There has to be a happy medium. I was discussing this very fact with corle the other night. He actually said that he thinks WK got the fun vs luck vs tactics and strategy factor pretty close to right. Who would have believed it? I agree...

You don't want Arnis to dominate you.... build against him and outplay your opponent. It can be done...

Come to think of it, 1.5x movement probably won't work either.

6 move = 9 charge
7 = 10 (rounding down)
8 = 12
9 = 13
10 = 15

Mechs under 10 move just don't have enough reach.

Well I can't really offer anything helpful other than what won't work, which is making the movement too small, and making the cost for charging way outweigh the benefit (eg letting the defender take a free shot, taking your own primary damage, etc).

This is something I have been advocating (in various, less seen places) for quite some time. I also think that this is the single best "make mechs more playable" fix there is without damaging game balance. It simple builds on the inherent strength of mechs without making them the only units worth playing. It would also make SS mechs actually playable! Pushing for mechs = nothing or total disaster. There is no middle ground. A failed heat roll after a push should definitely have a price, just not the game (as Nick already said).

It interests me that everyone seems to be voting for "Change charge so that it weakens Arnis and all mechs that could charge" - why? Because "all mechs that could charge" is basically ALL MECHS, period. I mean... that's kind of a weird thing to say.

But anyway, my thought is a simple one:
Just give a +2 to the target's defense.

Think about it if that were to be done:

DFA:
- +2 to target's defense
- Standard movement only
- Jump-jet Mechs only
- Possible 2 clicks of damage to self
- Primary damage +2 if successful

Charge:
- +2 to target's defense
- Double-movement allowed
- ALL Mechs have this option
- Possible 1 click of damage to self
- Primary damage +1 if successful

Why have the same defense modifier? SIMPLE! Alright, sure, a DFA requires you to jump up and come down on top of the target - that's kind of tough to do, first of all for accuracy, second of all because you're lighting yourself up like a christmas tree saying "HERE I COME!"... so, sure, a Charge has got to be easier, because you're staying on the ground, and you're staying level with the target - but at the same time, you're still on the ground, and you're staying level with the target - so sure, it's easier to keep yourself in line with the target, but also, it's easier for the target to see you and get the heck outa dodge first, because they don't even have to look up.

I think this is fair and I seriously believe it's the way to go.

If you don't want some degree of uncertainty, then play chess. MWDA has dice, there will always be uncertainty. The thing with heat effects is managing and weighing the risks (1/3 chance of going boom) against the potential gains (blasting the #### out of an opposing piece). Even a simple attack requires uncertainty. You may only need an 8, but that is still about a 1/3 chance to miss. Are you saying that all attack rolls should automatically hit?

The whole premise of the game is to accept those unsure probabilities and try to maneuver and plan in a way that you increase your odds of winning. No army has a 100% chance of winning, regardless of who builds it, what pieces they use, and how well they play it; if you roll all critical misses you can't win. But the dice tend to be average. Yes, about one third of the time Hasbani will partially self destruct, but only if you get him to the point where you have to consistently make that roll. Put him in water, use him less often, keep him away from energy and flamer threats, etc, there are ways to do it. His damage represents a big advantage, and it is balanced by the potential bad effects of an ammo explosion. He has a critical ammo explosion check on his last click of heat, but that isn't often mentioned. Why? Because most players have the sense to avoid getting him that hot.

Manage the risks, and plan and act in a way that brings the odds in your favor. Some things, like charging and tank drop, make it way to easy to skew the odds in your favor in many conditions. That is why they need fixed. I will now offer two simple suggestions, one to fix charge and one to fix tank drop. Tell me if they do not work well, can be exploited, or even don't make sense in a "realistic" way.

Charges must be done in a straight line, with no obstacles along the straight line path that takes the charger into base contact with it's target. If the new rules are made official, this means a charger could go "over" infantry in the way as long as the charger still has room to fit its base. The target's base counts as an obstacle, so the charger must end in base contact with the half of the target that was facing it at the beginning of the turn (no hairpin turns in the middle of charges, whole thing is a straight line).

Only infantry and vehicles with "towed" in their names may be passengers of a transport unit. Infantry can be transported. Towed artillery may still be towed. Tanks twice the size of the transport may not. Presto, no more tank drop.

Simple, easily explained. Tell me how those would not work. Really, because if there is a way they wouldn't, I don't know it.

Are you seriously suggesting that Derek Hasbani's terrible heat dial is offset by his stats? All you need to do is get him to his second heat click (his second for Pete's sake) and he will deal 4 damage to himself... 4! That is acceptable for a 286 point unit? Are you seriously suggesting that a unit with a 6 move can bring those 286 points to bear without getting to that second heat click consistently? Are you expecting your opponent to come to within 14 inches of your Derek Camped in water all without dropping AP pogs on you the whole time? With the advent of artillery (yes, even after the change) any mech that can do 4 damage as to itself as easily as Derek is unplayable in the current game. A mech needs to move to stay alive in the current incarnation of the game. If you do not blow yourself up, your opponents artillery will get you while he uses the rest of his army to destroy your support (in games of larger than 300 points). Change the heat rolls and, all of a sudden, Derek is a scary MF and worthy of his 286 point cost (but not overpowered for his cost).

Push a vehicle, take a click of damage. A mech's only adavantagfe (besides charge, which is a dubious advantage at best) is its ability to push over multiple turns. Derek cannot do that without unreasonable risk.

Consider the difference the suggested changes to the heat rolls make to the game. Even better, play test them. If you have a few games with the suggested changes, you will see how they subtly but significantly change the game to make it more mech-centric without making mechs unreasonably powerful.

Just try it, please.

Whew, I actually read the whole thread. Anyway, I am of the camp that advocates that charge itself is the problem, not any one mech and that banning is simply not an option. I like leaving charge at 2x speed and +1 primary damage, but making charge more risky. Look at DFA'ing: +2 to target's defense and possible 2 damage to yourself if you malf it up. That is enough to discourage most players from DFA'ing. Now look at charge as it is now: no modifier to target's defense, 1-3 heat and only 1 damage to yourself. And on top of that, charge has really long range. The risk/reward ratio is absolutely skewed in the wrong direction for charge. Having a successful charge deal target's primary -1 to a minimum of 1 to the charger levels the playing field for mechs across the board. That and having a missed charge deal no damage to either party, but exposing the charger's rear arc to the target are enough to discourage charging from being the primary mode of dealing damage with a mech. These are easy fixes that:
1) make sense
2) make charge a desperation maneuver like DFA
3) keep charge a viable way to bypass armor SE's for mechs lacking AP (*cough* SC *cough*)
4) keep a leash on tank drop (could also just give disembarking units tokens)
5) make chargemonkeys like Arnis look less viable and make bigger mechs look more viable


As for the other proposed fixes, I'll go through them and offer my opinion on why they wouldn't work.

1) Reducing charge to 1-1.5x: Still leaves Arnis as the king of charging and makes all ICE mechs absofreakinlutely useless.

2) Give the target a defense modifier: Not a good idea because it makes high defense mechs unchargeable.

3) Giving the target a free shot: You just shouldn't be able to get shot on your turn.

4) Making charge deal a uniform amount across the board: Doesn't really fix the fact that if the charger connects, it's all downhill from there (degenerating stats). Also doesn't make sense when you have a Locust and Atlas do the same amount of damage.

5) Requiring LOS: Doesn't make sense. Football players can charge in a non-straight line, why can't mechs? Would also make charge nigh impossible to even attempt against even mediocre players.

6) Using armor to reduce charge damage: Goes against what charge was intended to do in the first place: get around the armor.




Another helpful fix would be for WK to actually playtest their #### before releasing it. If they can't afford decent playtesters, I'm sure the members of this community (myself included) would gladly offer their services to fulfill that role free of charge. Computer game makers do that, why can't WK too?

Since the rules revision porposed by Draddog, I feel that a fresh breeze of optimism (and sometimes exagerated enthusiasm) has come to the realms. I too think that charge should be changed, though I don't think I have the abilities to advocate my opinion gamewise (no, I'm not "the best player at my venue, if I could have come to the world championships, I would have won hands down"). But I love this game and its universe (since 1985). So I'm more of a casual player and a fluff fan than a techician. Which makes me believe that charge should be changed. Here are the propositions I liked on this thread:
-limit charge's range: It's obvious, though I'm afraid it could overbalance the game mechanics. But a game where some mechs can charge for 28 inches while the max range for missiles is 16 (for Sadia and Yulri) is just wrong. If the clans had invaded during the dark age, IS mechs would have ripped them apart with their lightning fast charges... Just wrong. In fact, I even think that running mechs shouldn't double their speed...
-charge should be limited to targets within LoS: Once again, obvious. Mechs don't turn as easily as that.
-the heat change: GREAT! Makes SS mechs (and the other ones with bad heat, like some SH, HL...) far more playable playable! The edge of those "no heat mechs" like Arnis would be nicely lessened. In the actual rules, there's too much difference between good heat mechs, which can benefit from the most important mech edge, pushability, and those with bad heat dials, which become even less pushable than vehicles or infantry (which only take I damage when pushed, while Hasbani or Tadaka suffer far more greatly).
So perhaps those charge limitations would make other units like arty or VTOLs, or even tank drops more powerful... Well, the solution is simple: ban tank drop (no vehicle transport ewcept towed, a simple rule that just makes sense), limit arty again (like no AP, or even no SE at all for arty shots), etc...
That's only my opinion!

I think we should note that Draddog made no promise that charge was going to be reviewed. The whole point of this poll was just to measure the opinion of those of us here.

However, given certain evidence, I think that WizKids may be looking at possible options for both charge and tank-drop. Therefore, this poll becomes of more use to them (and therefore the information gathered significant).

We have seen a lot of well-reasoned arguments throughout this thread, and a few blatant rants. At the end of the day, I think that the majority opinion is that something needs to be changed about charge/tank-drop.

My bets are on a reduction in the range of charge and possibly an increase in the difficulty of the attack. I would also bet that we will see proposed rules changes for charge/tank-drop sometime in February/March - this would allow the current proposed rules to take affect and allows for the release of Counterassault.

Regarding Counterassault, consider a mech with TSM and a speed of 9/10, and a SS heat dial. It pushes and charges for an range of 18 to 20, taking 2 clicks of heat (assuming no evade). The dial gives it bonuses because of the TSM. I wonder which light mech this might be applied to?

How about we look at the core mechanics of MWDA.

There are 3 core concepts: point cost, orders and options that include move, attack or rest (voluntary or involuntary).

Point Cost is a value placed on a unit given how it functions based on the primary and secondary mechanics of the game and includes things like damage, move, attack and defense values as well as life, type and range of weapons, special equipments and most likely a fudge factor.

Orders are determined by total point cost and limits the options a player can perform in a given turn, which also has a direct bearing on the number and type of units a player chooses to have in their battleforce.

Options are where a player chooses or is constrained by prior actions to do one of three basic things, move, attack or rest. Every unit, every turn will do one of these 3 things. This is a primary game mechanic. Secondary mechanics would be ranged attack, close combat attack, run, vent, you know the rest. The issue is there are 5 exceptions to this primary mechanic: Ram, DFA, Charge, VTOLS, and transports indirectly that allow with one order to move and attack. Transports are special case of move and shoot with the same unit and two orders but still more efficient since a single unit would take two turns to that instead of one turn and a click of damage to do so. Not the case with transports “dropping” either vehicles or infantry.

It is in the exceptions that are causing issues at least instinctively to people. I hope this post makes it more of a fact-finding experience.

Now Ram and DFA are not complained about because Charge, VTOLS and transports are much more efficient and there are built in limitations to Ram and DFA in the form of limited damage, move is less than at least the majority of ranged combat ranges, damage done to attacker and possibly a defense bonus in the case of DFA.

Charge is only allowed by Mechs and the range out strips ranged combat which gives a single unit no defense based on tactical movement by itself other than to continually move away which does not make for a fun game.

VTOLS also out range (at least some of the nastier ones) all other units except artillery, which I will get to later. They are also immune to charges if placed in cruising mode.

Transports while carrying another unit(s), can effectively give another unit a limited version of the built in move and shoot that VTOLS enjoy.

You already know all this. If these 5 things were eliminated from the game due to their exceptional capabilities, what would happen? Well this would take a lot of play testing but my estimated outcome is that it would be more tactical maneuvering and less damage done in the hour we play. I believe the intent in creating these secondary mechanics is to break maneuvering deadlocks, which is what artillery is designed for as well.

Does anyone disagree with what has been said so far?

To put these mechanics closer inline with other units, charge would need to be basic move distance like ram and DFA with a possible modifier change. VTOLS could retain their ability to ignore close combat and special attacks, possibly even when they are NOE and transports could move their full distance with the transported units being charged for disembarking. What I mean by that is the transport could move its full distance or that could be retained at half distance and then the transported unit would either get a token or two, or be limited to a move order. What needs to happen is remove the attack part from a move part to bring it inline other units capabilities.

Now a quick blurp on artillery…

The proposed artillery rules combined with the 450/3 orders proposed rule will create my 3 artys. What I mean by that is with those extra points, a player can easily stack pogs from different units and my quick choice would be 2 SW Padillas and BR’s Kenny for two locations at 6AP and that is 161 points leaving 289 points to defend my 3 artys. Not a very good solution. Better would be to say, a unit can only be affected by a single artillery pog once per turn, hence no stacking of pogs from any source. Attacker could determine which pog affects the unit.

If you are going to change one, you have to change all otherwise as surmised by others, the other exceptions will take precedence.

Now that has to be 5 stones worth of commentary. ;)
Mike

sorry for not reading other peoples post but my server is slow

my feelings.

1. The defending unit should have a greater defence value, say +2 for vehicles, +3 for mechs

2. the chargeie (unit being charged) should get a shot at at the charger, order token and heat points should take effect

Their seems to be a big problem with people charging all game instead of battling it out like it should be. The best way to keep people from overusing charge is to make charging something that is only desirable when it’s absolutely necessary.

You shouldn’t cap the the damage a charge does to a mech because realistically you really could do quite a bit of damage by running full force into another mech. Also, any mech running full force into another has potential to cause more or less damage than available on the weapons dial.

What you should do is make charging more like Hand to hand. When the charge is successful the opposing mech then rolls one six sided dice to determine the damage, the charging mech also rolls one six sided dice to determine his damage. This is going to keep people from constantly using charge, and only use it when


a.) its strategical necessary

b.) out of desparation.

The only drawback to this is people taking the chance with a smaller mech to get 1 - 6 points damage, but they would also take the same 1 - 6 chance. And if they miss the charge completely, guess what... 1 - 6 clicks.. owch.

bye- bye charge monkeys, hello combat.

I'm all for making a charge harder to hit (either a -1 for attack or +1 defense), but the only way to really limit charge is to set a fixed amount of damage that the charger will take. I think that primary -1 (of the chargee) seems to be the best for making charges a desperation or finishing move.

Whle the line of sight rule makes alot of sense, the way the rules are right now you can use terrain and infantry or VTOLs to block a charge.

On a side note, could we maybe get a second poll on this same subject using the suggestions from this thread.
ie: Increase defense; Require line of Sight; Limit Damage to Chargee (cap of 2 or 3); Increase Damage to Charger (Primary -1 seems pretty popular, but so does upping the damge from 1 to 2 or 3);
reduced range of charge; No change at all; anything else i forgot.

ok, there's my two cents.