Reeks enough to make folks consider dropping the game altogether if it goes on much longer...

For a bunch of former MTG pros, you'd think they'd have grasped this over at UDE.

Why? I can understand wanting her banned so that the PC is balanced and fun (and wholeheartedly support a ban), but why would her presence make you quit the game?

Play the game how you want to play it.

You can't netdeck a format that's never been played. :tired:

I'm very highly in support of booting Frankie Raye <> Nova: Optimistic Youth out of OP. BEFORE PC Down Under. Why would you wait until after she ruins an event? That's just stupid. And mean. And not very healthy for VS. Healthy, wealthy and wise doesn't always come in that exact order.

UDE, please be wise, ban Frankie for a healthy Pro Circuit event and get wealthy off the continued bettering of the game started by the banning of Valeria/others and return of team stamping. There's a definite balance to be had between Spiderman/Superman and Crisis/HoG, which I think you had perfected in Avengers/JLA. And please, take another Crisis/HoG cycle over another Spiderman/Superman. At least Crisis/HoG are closer to where they should be and it's MUCH more exciting to have the game be a little overpowered vs. the new set being useless from the get go.

-Mike

Wasn't speaking for myself... these are the feelings (as expressed to me) of former MTG-players who have converted to VS. Most of them left MTG (after many years) during the Mirrodin/Affinity/Ravager/Skullclamp nonsense. They have a good grasp of the meta/potential meta of VS and have said that they will drop this game as well if the meta becomes a stale "clone" of what MTG was at that point.

Not calling for the sky to fall, but the grumbling is going on out there and I find it quite sad.... especially when it's so easily avoidable.

Sure you can...you know the decks were leaked between teams immediately.

I can guarantee that the posted decklist has already been built since the post went up a few hours ago. I know I'm going to run into it this weekend at a PCQ.

I get it, the PC is far more important is the grand scheme of things, but the ripples will be felt at PCQs and Hobby Leagues within a day or 2.

Let's say there are 40 people at said PCQ on Saturday, if 10 people run this deck, it's safe to assume that at least half of the Top 8 will consist of Frankie.dec. Unless the other 30 or so people tech in preparation.

After the PC the rest of you will move on to testing for the next PC, the rest of us have to deal with the aftermath of your Frankenstein's Monster.

It's the same old story, the PROs create and innovate, the rest of the world emulates.

What I'd love to see is a ban EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, so I can go back to playing Vs and not Rock, Paper, Scissor.

CC

Just throwing my 2 cents in here in case UDE has taken notice to this:

I'm a PCQ-goer and consider myself more than a casual player, yet I am far from a pro. My group and I had a feeling that Frankie could possibly be broken. The more I think about how she can be abused with Attend or Die!, the more I believe it.

Please, UDE, ban Frankie Raye <> Nova, Optimistic Youth. I love Vs., and one more banning of a common card will not infuriate me, or the group I play with. Mistakes happen; own up to them.

Quoted for savage truthery. No matter what happens with Frankie, remember the glory days of Hellboy and Marvel Team-Up we are about to experience. The game is about to get a whole hell of a lot better.

So if they ban all the good free one drops, attend or die and Dr. Light then all of the sudden everyone is playing curve decks with Anarchy. It's PCNY all over again.

I say let her stay. It's not like she's a pre-erratum rama tut, for god's sake.


Breaking the curve is what this game is all about. Every set that comes out has new ways to get multiples of the same drop in, over-drop on a turn or to bring guys back for free. I remember when everyone was playing Curve Sentinels, I longed for a game that wasn't decided on who could make their Bastion bigger. It was so damn boring. I love going to a tourney now and facing 7 different decks in 7 rounds.

From everything I've read in these pages, it seems like Attend or Die is the one that needs to go. I certainly wouldn't lament losing it. NTZ puts the kibosh on Nega Bomb and it's as easy to draw as your Nega when I'm using Frankie as well. The difference is my deck will have better characters.

The only thing that concerns me is that Hala list. NTZ doesn't do #### to that.

That's just me though, I love Frankie.

Ok that's fine
but see she breaks a lot of fundamental rules
and let's things happen that weren't intentional
please UDE, we know we know, everytime something degenerate occurs we always put out these annoying outcries
but it's how you know something has to be done
especially with this many casuals and pros alike

To be a Magic pro, a person has to be smart. To be a Vs. pro, a person has to be a genius.

With so many genius players in Vs. like yourself, it is inevitable that broken cards will be found or created. Vs. players are just that intelligent.

To be fair to UDE, Vs. does not have that many broken cards when one considers the 2000 plus cards that have been printed. Also with 2000 plus cards and more being added on each year, there will be more and more cards getting banned each year since there are more and more possible interactions between cards that will lead to broken combo decks.

More bannings will also occur since the recent sets have been so good. With each good set, there will be better and better cards, which can lead to more broken cards.

UDE has a few chooses. They could produce weaker sets again like Web of Spiderman and Man of Steel. This could help cards from becoming broken since the new cards would not be that good to begin with. I didn't like the weaker sets, so I will not recommend this.

They could continue to "push the envelope." Giving you great sets overall but with the likelihood that one or two cards would banned from each set. I like this option better then the weaker set option but I would like these great sets not to have any broken cards in them.

This could lead to UDE to try to find a middle ground between a powerful set and a weaker set. Problem with this is what is the middle ground. Each Vs. player and UDE designer could have a different view of what is the middle ground. So one's view of the middle ground could be view by another person as too powerful or too weak. For me there is too much space in the middle ground for there to be a middle ground.

Now granted, Frankie Raye should have "Heralds of Galactus" put into both her effects when she was printed. UDE should have known that Frankie Raye was too good without an affiliation restriction put into her text. It is obvious to see how broken she is without an affiliation restriction in her text. UDE should do something about this as soon as possible by either banning her or errata.

Personally, I would like UDE to follow the below statement when designing cards.

"Push the envelope but put team affiliation requirements in the textbox."

I have to pick apart this point a bit.

I am for banning Frankie (1 - MHG), and agree that more possible bannings will happen as the game continues to expand, but the premise that a good set will coincide with a higher amount of broken cards isn't something I'd just jump right into without more thought - maybe that's just me though and I'm behind on some basic assumptions.

Just because something can be broken doesn't mean that it, out of context of whatever interaction it creates, is a "good card". I don't think anyone is arguing that Go Down Fighting was essentially a strong card, but it was broken in the context of what it enabled.

Now I'm not saying that stronger sets don't possibly relate to more potentially breakable cards, but I do think it is something that I would want more support for before I'd just accept it.

And yet the major teams played different decks at LA. You'd think they'd all have the same deck cause they all knew each other's deck. Or you know, they just changed their deck to combat those other decks. Which is the _opposite_ of net decking... Which isn't even the proper term for playing a deck leaked to you by someone you know without reading about it in tournament results... On the internet...

Golden Age PCQ. But fine, someone can play the decks (that were posted AFTER you complained about net decking) in Sydney. But if they aren't good enough players to win on their own... They're going to lose no matter how good the deck is. Just like if a good player builds a bad deck they're going to lose no matter what. Some of us aren't so willfully ignorant as to ignore a viable avenue of testing (that may be the ONLY avenue of testing many of us have available) so we can pay money (gas is money too) to get our asses kicked trying to figure out why we got the short end of the stick trying to play EE Mono just cause someone else got lucky and figured out GLEE first and earns "dibs" on playing it. Some of us do it because we don't care about losing, but that doesn't mean trying to win is bad.

Rest of who? Me? I'm no Pro Deck Builder. I WISH. I don't create PC winning decklists. I'm one of those scumbag monsters who ::GASP:: plays net decks at OP events. Because ::GASP:: I like to win! And yet, SHOCK! AWE! ::GASP!:: I have fun even when I don't. I even play jank at PCQs sometimes. Net decking isn't evil. It's absolutely insulting when people imply such.

Immediate bans are a TERRIBLE idea. Your PCQ? Ask around and find out who traveled the furthest. Then think ask about how long ago they had to make their plans for the PCQ. Like say taking a day off work or maybe even grabbing a hotel. Now imagine Frankie is banned the afternoon before the PCQ, effective immediately. They travel all this way the next day bring a Lost In Space style Frankie deck that doesn't use NegaBomb or Hala and is a few step behinds the ban... And they get there and because they were so busy doing some extra work or just living their own lives they didn't check the net... Oh hey, sorry, can't play dude. Deck's banned. Go away. That'll certainly play well in stories to attract new players and keep the old ones.

-Mike

Immediate ban is not good. They could set the date for the 1st of March or something like that . This makes it illegal for the PC. We still have 1 and half months before the PC. This is plenty of time for pros to build a deck without Frankie. The current age is Golden and has enough tech to deal with these decks. So PCQ's will not be that bad.

I love how you call yourself a scumbag (your choice of words, not mine) and then say you are offended by being called an evil netdecker.

I never once used any of those words, you did. I merely pointed out that I hate it when people complain about the meta. But then, a few other pros pointed out the level to which Frankie.dec is going to degenerate the game state. Not only did I get posted replies, but I received PMs as well. Now (with said proof) I can understand the gravity of the situation.

I have been to PCQs where a card was banned and the people weren't allowed to play it even though it had been announced the day before. The T.O. CHOSE TO MAKE THE BAN IMMEDIATE.

This is Raffinity, Skullclamp, Lightshow, Necropotence, etc. Weren't there 2 10ks the week Lightshow hit the boards??? What happened at those 10ks...oh yeah LIGHTSHOW WON.

And yeah, I'm driving 2 hours so it does effect me directly. My Chrysler 300 is a bit of a gas guzzler, so I get the gas=money point.

And even though I'll be running Mono-Spiderfriends or Darkseid, I want to have fun. Frankie.dec means I'll have to run 4 Political Pressure in response. What does my friend, who wants to run anything else do when he realizes he doesn't have 4X Pressure?

So not turning away "scumbag netdeckers" (your term, not mine) is better than letting 20 other people get thrashed by a degenerate combo deck, thus reducing the likelihood that they will A. continue to play at PCQs B. Continue to buy new product because their OP experience was awful.

And whatever the final Frankie.dec list looks like, I'm sure it will be a variation of a previously published list. The core of the deck Frankie, Stranger, Ivy, Etc has been around for a while. So yeah, it's a netdeck.

You're trying really hard to ride the fence on this when it's obvious if given the opportunity to cash in on the deck, you would. So don't try and blast me when all I'm trying to do is keep the casual community healthy.

The best part of this thread is the NEW NEGABOMB thread trying to combo Negabomb-Thor-Unexpected Mutation. The world needs more of that and less of this.

CC

I never know when to start discussing stuff in these type of threads.

Banning Attend or Die does not fix the problem. Trust me.