High raw stats have been around... people just tend to overlook.Fantastic forces gave us the shared 19 def.. That was more annoying then just about anything coming out today..

indeed it was. indeed it was.

You should have seen the beatdown I handed a guy the other day. He played the new and improved Enchantress, Fenris Wolf, Malekith, and two generic Valkyries.

I was using the new Kingpin, The Owl, and a bunch of old Vet pieces. Shocker, F.F. Vulture, The Wizard, Rhino, and Calypso.

I massacred his evil litle god sqaud!

Power creep is all in your mind guys. People were screaming the same thing when they brought out K.C. Supes.

Shocker is an awesome peice kudos to you

I think M-11 is way undercosted, too.

I demolished two teams with him in sealed (granted, I had some lucky re-gen rolls..)

I'd still play him if he cost 15 points more.

Well by lucky rolls my Asgard Spidey killed Balder and lady siff in the same game.. he was based to both of them at the same time.. he is Borkin!!

Seriously? Ok, Prime with Ex. Black Cat and Oracle on ICWO = 397.
I'll take on 8 M11's with that any day and with medium good dice rolls I'll leave a smoldering pile of dead robots every turn I don't have to clear. With Oracle's Perplex and + 1 attack from ICWO I'll have a 12 AV, 6 damage, Indomitable, HSS wrecking machine. With a dumpster adding + 2 damage that's 8. Not to mention my 8 move L/C re-roller. It will be a long match of kill a slow moving 6 range robot, fly up to elevated terrain, and wait to clear, because you'll never catch me unless I get double tokened. When you're down to about 4 M11's I'll start using Indomitable and HSS to my advantage and speed thing up a bit, killing them off in consecutive turns. On defense turns if and when I'm double marked I'll Perplex and Oracle my defense to a 19, sit on hindering outside your 6 range and wait to clear

On the tank battlefield or junkyard map I'll kill or cripple at least two M11's sitting still before they can creep within my 10 range

If we're talking 400 points, it would be 6 M-11's, not 8, which is 354 points. In this hypothetical match-up, I would add The Question to the M-11 team, with Protected on him. Of course, you could respond with Fortitude, but you'd have to give up either your re-roller or some Oracle goodness, and I'd still have a Perplexer. If you can't get to 8 damage (suppose you give up ICWO), you can't put down an M-11 in one hit, and they will Regenerate unless you finish them off. That also means that the moment Prime takes damage, his ability to put them down in one action is compromised.

Because I know something you don't know.

And what is that?

I... am not left-handed.

-J

The old figs are not all bad... Clobbbering time Dr. Doom and Nightcrawler(to a lesser extent) are still playable. Unleashed KC superman can still be a pain in the butt. especially armed with fortitude though he is a little outclassed by the new one. I recall there is a superman that has the batman team ability... that one still rocks.

Ultimate thor is never to be looked down upon. especially with your opponents support figs around. and I havent even scratched the surface. ... Thanos will still hurt your opponents badly. Hitting the mercenary evil known as deathstroke is almost a joke without move and attack, then he gets the ability to leap away.

But let's take something in your comparison set ... the gem known as Dagger


I think that Dagger is possibly more lethal for Moonstone. the Spider-man team ability is just insane on her... Back in the day I ran these squads...

V dagger 69
E Black Adam 123
V Black Widow Ult 59
r Jean Grey 31
R Moloid 6
V paramedic 12
300

or

V dagger 69
E Black Adam JSA 123
V Black Widow Ult 59
r Jean Grey X-men 31
R Moloid 6
R con artist 11
by Lian Harper 1

300

The continual dumpster was Adam's weapon of choice.

Dagger was able to wildcard Ultimates, JSA and Xmen. as long as Adam softens up characters she took them down. .... hard. especially with perplexed up damage.

I would classify Moonstone as a light primary attacker because of her stats and powers... but I still would take dagger over moonstone ... Why?


As awesome as moonstone is she is nowhere near as synergistic as this piece is. Dagger is a strong secondary attacker with 3 targets who can become a decent medic especially for this squad. She features psychic blast and incapacitate... this is especially threatening if Dagger along side the sinister syndicate or Batman enemies. Point for moonstone 2 for dagger

Moonstone's numbers are superior.. but Daggers odds are better because can hedge her bets with the triple bolt action. The range advantage is 3 squares which can be huge. Point for moonstone, 2 for dagger.


On the defensive side of things Moonstone is very similar with her shape change being almost the same as daggers super senses. Her range is alot larger. However if you take the Ultimates team ability (tBolts) that advantage is partially reduced. Point for moonstone, 3 or 4 points for dagger

Dagger should never push unless you can exchange clicks with her.
Moonstone does not have that issue with pushing until the second click. Point for moonstone. 0 for dagger

Damage wise Moonstone has a serving of outwit that can be huge... 16 with energy shield deflection and outwit on a dial is no joke.
However Dagger can become a medic. Since she was probably in the battle anyways you wont have to go and have your medic run up the field (or be tked/flown) then you can exchange clix or have her protected by JSA/Defenders. (Jakeem thunder is dagger's new best friend.. sorry cloak. ) two points for moonstone, 1 point for dagger


point tally 6 for Moonstone 8 (or 9) points for Dagger

I can see your point if you look at Dagger as being lower ranked if you look at her by herself.... however on a wildcard abuse squad.... I will take Dagger any and every day.

Or he'd have to hit your Question to knock the protected off of him, and run away.

And he'd do it when Question had a token, naturally, so as to force a push.

I don't see the M-11's winning it, and Prime isn't even the best tentpole.

I don't mean to sound all cocky, but the M11's, while very cheap for what they do, have not overly impressed me so far. I played an opponent at 500 points using 4 of them last week and carying them with fire demons. He also had Kurse on his team. I used Thor, SR Valkyrie, two Asgardian Warriors, and a generic Valkyrie.

He moved out first coming at me with his Demons and robots. I blasted an M11 on my first turn, then finished on my second with Thor's 10 range and Indomitable. While Thor was locked down my opponnet moved closer and I based the three reamaining with Valkyrie. She was carrying the desk so they had to hit a 20. I wasn't to worried and it paid off in the end because he spent several turns either trying to hit her high defense or trying to break away.

I then charged two of them with my A.W.'s minion power and hit them both. Once Thor cleared I let him handle Kurse and Valkyrie and the rest mopped up the M11's and Fire Demons. One damaged M11 finally suceeded in using PB on Thor and I just healed him with Valkyrie and laughed about it.

Range advantage and Running Shot is hard to beat when used well. The M11's downfall is their lack of move and attack powers and slowish move value of 7. If they had Charge or Running Shot I'd be scared to death of them.

M-11 is a nice piece for the points, but he's not crazy or anything, just efficient and long-lived. All this talk of an All-M-11 team or multiples is silly-- you still need a well-rounded team to win any match.

True, and good tactic BTW. I still say with good rolls I can finish this by attrition and good use of HSS. In that scenario it could go either way though. As someone else said , Prime is not the ideal tentpole for me anyway. Too many eggs in one basket. I'd much rather have V. Icon Supes carded up and with a with a good pit crew.

Superman with ICWO, Fortitude, Protected, and Unstoppable
Oracle on ICWO
Ex. Black Cat w/ ICWO
V. Paramedic x 2
Alfred Pog
= 398

That's a dead Question and 6 dead M11's.

Heh, if you really want to meta-build, trade in that Unstoppable for Nanoarmor (399 points) so that the M-11's can't use Super-Strength to hurt you.

But all this is just academic fun - we all know there are ways to build against Skrull Ms. Marvel too, but that doesn't mean she was built with proper game balance. It's just a question of degree - if a figure can be exploited such that you are forced to metagame against it, I consider that figure a "problem child". Some people will shrug, but I'm a big fan of making figures with point costs that give them all about equal overall utility in gameplay.

I say "less Grey Gargoyles and Skrull Ms. Marvels" and that no figure should make your opponent laugh or groan (except Frog of Thunder, who causes laughter, followed by intense cursing).