Hence the last line in my post: figure balance.

If the gap is shortened between the "tiers" then the game *COULD* balance itself out.

But that is something that will never happen, and so we will always have elements that are just flat-out worth more than the cost associated with them.

That's fine. Was I responding to him? I don't think I was, I'm pretty sure I was responding to YOUR comments.
I am? I'm almost positive that isn't right and when I make a team I'm only telling ME what I have to play.
BULL! It is still a game. Lopsidedness doesn't make something not a game. If it did then the NFL would have to refund all the Hundreds of Millions they got for Advertising because those Advertisers were advertising at a Game. Which it still is. Lopsided or not. And AGAIN YOU are saying whether or not I am having fun. You even attempting to do so is about as ignorant as one can get. I might have a TON of fun demolishing your team. I might have a ton of fun because I ... I dunno... enjoy playing Heroclix. I'm really sorry that somehow YOU don't have fun getting demolished. I'm pretty sure that is ALL on you. I've had fun getting demolished plenty of times. I had fun when a Sentry/Void with UB demolished my Resourceless Batman team.
You're right, it doesn't hold water at all. If YOU can't have fun when you're losing then you're competitive by nature. That's on YOU. A lot of people can still have fun regardless. And if you WERE right, and Player A couldn't enjoy the game if it was lopsided then doesn't that mean Player B is "essentially telling Player A what he can play" as otherwise it will ruin the fun for Player A to simply play what he wants? So then the person playing the weak X-Force team is essentially telling his opponents "You're team better be crappy too or it won't be any fun for you! Ha!" Works both ways man.
I prefer creativity, fun, and an environment that is mentally stimulating and challenging.
So that everyone can play what they want and hopefully find their favorite characters in the game. Or for people like me that don't read, or particularly like, comics so we can find our favorite play-style pieces and have near infinite variety if we want it.

It is nice to see that I am not the only one who falls into this group.

Well, I can't fix stupid. But I can end discussions that I have control over in order to prevent stupidity from spreading too far. lol.



And as many a level headed person has said, which continues to be the solution to your problem that you won't acknowledge:

If you don't like resources, ask your local meta to ban them. This is completely within your right to do so with no penalty incurred for playing the game how you enjoy it.

And again you miss the point. It's not that the Avengers or the Justice League should be more powerful because they are more popular. It's that the Avengers or the Justice League should be more powerful because THAT'S BEING COMIC ACCURATE. Which is the biggest complaint people in the Anti-Resource camp seem to have. You want comic accuracy? Than Thor needs to be the bees knees. Because he literally mows down anything but cosmic level beings. Cap should have the best leadership in the game, because that's how he is in the comics. Superman should be an extremely effective figure against all but other figures known for using Kryptonite or Magical Energy. It has nothing to do with popularity.

Um...that's NOT the biggest complaint about resources. The biggest complaint is that they're hideously overpowered for the points compared to anything else in the game. That's something that's evident whether one reads comics or not.

And depending on what run you're talking about, the Avengers aren't necessarily that powerful, and I suppose the same goes for the Justice League, too. And the X-Men are definitely not all that powerful if we're talking about the early line-ups. Heck, there were times that Spider-Man was capable of beating the entire X-Men by himself.

So I think that saying that the X-Men or Avengers should be able to beat resources but not Young Justice doesn't automatically jump out as referring to power level instead of popularity. Can you really fault me for "missing the point" when it wasn't even covered in that post?

(And I just now realized that you're not even the person that posted that, so maybe that guy did mean to refer to popularity and you're the one that missed it, not me.)

And frankly, I DON'T want the game to be comic accurate. Because your version of the game where Superman crusheds everyone that doesn't use magic or Kryptonite sounds like it might be a good comic simulation, but a horribly unfun game.

Than I have grossly misconstrued peoples complaints against resources. Because the overwhelming consensus I have read from the anti-resource crowd in this thread is that people don't like using resources because it doesn't make comic accurate sense for the characters they wish to field.

If your complaint this whole time has been that resources are broken, than I can't believe we're still debating this. Because you've been told on probably a dozen occasions now that if you don't like them, you need to talk to your venue.

I mean if you're unwilling to do that, and you're just pissing in the wind for the sake of complaining against something that's never going to change, than carry on. I have no interest in that kind of discussion.

But if you actually want a personal solution, it's been pointed out to you several times now what you can do.

Wanting resources banned from competitive events where $1,000 is on the line is an absolutely asinine position. Which I had thought I read as you saying you DIDN'T want, as you said that people could use resources at Cons and ROC events.

This right here should be what you take away. Rep good sir.

You're ascribing a whole lot of things to me that I never said...I think you're really confused here.

I have no idea how vlad amd krakken wound up debating this as they appear to be of similar opinion (with which I agree )?????

Partially because of my tendency to play devil's advocate and point out what I feel are flaws in arguments even when I agree with the idea behind them, and partially because he appears to be confusing me with someone else based on that last post.

I don't think I need to put much input into this discussion, as this pretty much sums up my feelings on it.

It really irks me to no end that some people believe that in order for someone to be competitive and play competitive teams (with or without resources), we must remove our enjoyment of the game out of the equation. Why we're not allowed to do both is beyond me, but I find playing any team, competitive or not, to be extremely enjoyable (with one exception, and I vowed to never play that team again).

I know people don't like it when this game is compared to Magic in any way, but I'll do it anyway. Just like with Magic, I enjoy playing my "fun" elves & (were)wolves deck just as much as I like playing my min-maxed mono-white meta level deck, and neither require me to not play to the best of my abilities or lose any fun or enjoyment out of the game, and the same applies to heroclix.

TL;DR stop telling us how're we're supposed to enjoy the game and have fun.

Sigged.

Ironically, I think this is the takeaway that everyone from either side is trying to say.

Meta players don't want to be forced into playing with kiddy gloves at big events just because some people don't like resources.

Theme players don't want to be forced into using resources at their local events in order to have a good time.

Either way, these issues can and should be hashed out at the local level. There's even ROC events that are taking Group #2's opinion into account and having part of their events every year take out some of the broken game elements so that more people can enjoy these qualifiers.

In my opinion, it's a win win for everyone.

Resources are great, i can use any themed team i want now and give it a fighting chance by just adding a resource (that amazingly wont break theme as far as the rules are concerned) and off i go.
they are easy to get your hands on, given that most are participation prizes, rather than competitive prizes.
And there are enough varied options to choose from that no matter your play style at least one will fit your team.

Team bases however will not only be the end of heroclix, but will also be the end of the universe. How people can still be upset by resources, when they are our only ally against these evil, super powered, point denial monsters, is beyond me.

on a side note i really wanna play the PF on the wrecking crew. ignoring the name and shiny plastic fire, i think its a nice way to represent their shared power and give them a stand up chance in the competitive arena

Apparently he really is trippin'. I'm not surprised he got us confused as he doesn't actually read any other posts before launching into one of his lectures.

Not only did he inexplicably confuse me with Vlad, he's so lost up in his ivory tower at this point that he doesn't even really understand the opposing argument.

My issue with resources is not about comic accuracy, it's their inherent unbalance because of their point cost. (WoS Nightcrawler had the exact same problem.). For the record, I never said ban resources. I actually like the concept, I just think the point costs need to be significantly adjusted for what they do.

As for the "talk to your local judge" broken record - I already agreed with that. Multiple times, actually.

I'm sure I'll get flak for this too - or at least Vlad will....